Double-Taps

[John Badertscher]

How do people time the rhythm of the trigger squeeze for maximum speed/accuracy?

What's the best way to practice and think about the technique?

I can pull the trigger fast, but if the point is to put two rounds right on top of each other, I seem to be falling short.

[Al Morgan]

I was asking DR this same question in class. He told me I need to get in sync with the gun. So, it depends on your gun and load. They all behave differently as I'm finding out. :o

[Joe Ford]

depends on the shooting technique you are using,for really close stuff if you have good wrist lock and index you should be able to just hammer two shots as fast as you can pull the trigger say out to 5ish yards or so, medium range FF point shooting you would get in a cadence and time it right based on practice and timing drills. for 15 + yards or small or risky targets you have to be able to see the front sight lift and drop. the next shot is broke as soon as the front sight settles back on the target.

[John Badertscher]

Is there an ideal group size within which I should be keep the shots?

[Joe Ford]

again it depends on the target and the game or threat. Tiny groups are cool to look at but if you think about it if the spot you hit was so great you wouldnt need two now would you ? So maybe some separation is a good thing, In USPSA major pf a A zone and C zone hit is better if you can do it 1 tenth of a second faster than 2 A zones. In IDPA the -0 -1 would require you to do it a half second faster to be worth it. A half second is a long time to hit a target you are allready aimed basically at so for IDPA I'd say only as fast as you can keep it inside the 8 inch -0. I am not familiar enough with TSA scoring to have an opinion.

[Joe Ford]

if you wanna get really good at it get a forward falling pepper popper take a steady aimed first shot then keep firing to keep it standing up until you can get six rounds on it, then back up and repeat.

[John Badertscher]

I'm not looking for an uber small group...just a general guideline for good enough vs. needs work.

[John Badertscher]

Also is there a way to practice outside of the range? (probably not huh?)

[Rick Simes]

Timing is directly related to the distance from, and size of, the target. Try setting up three targets at 10/15/20yds. Shoot two rounds each near to far. Only shoot as fast as you can guarantee two good A zone hits. Notice how your timing changes as you flow from one target to the next- bambam, bam..bam, bam.....bam. Many newer shooters practice only what's easy (close range shots). When they start shooting scenarios with a mix of near/far targets they invariably hose the close targets and keep the same cadence for the far ones, with predictable results.

[Brad VanHorn]

Also is there a way to practice outside of the range? (probably not huh?)
You can do a dry fire double tap of sorts. Pretend as though you are aiming on target and slap the trigger twice as fast as you can without completely disturbing the sight picture. This obviously doesn't translate directly to the live fire since you give up recoil, trigger reset, etc. However, it essentially helps build up a little speed and strength in the trigger finger by simply practicing the motion. My description probably sucks, so hopefully it makes a little sense to you. By the way, what type of gun are you shooting?

[Brad VanHorn]

Is there an ideal group size within which I should be keep the shots?
When D.R. first started working with me on double taps, I was usually happy just getting both shots on one 12" steel plate :) . After a day of practice I was getting both shots within 3-4", and once in a while they were side by side.

Something I was doing for a while was similar to what Joe was describing with poppers. In my case I would shoot at backward falling poppers and I would try to get multiple shots on the popper before it fell flat. Double taps became routine and triple shots were common. Only on some of the really big, heavy, forward leaning poppers could I get more than a few shots before it fell. If nothing else it was fun :)

[John Badertscher]

You can do a dry fire double tap of sorts. Pretend as though you are aiming on target and slap the trigger twice as fast as you can without completely disturbing the sight picture. This obviously doesn't translate directly to the live fire since you give up recoil, trigger reset, etc. However, it essentially helps build up a little speed and strength in the trigger finger by simply practicing the motion. My description probably sucks, so hopefully it makes a little sense to you. By the way, what type of gun are you shooting?

Glock.

[John Badertscher]

By the way that did make sense Brad thanks.

Anyone tried one of the Glock trigger reset inserts?

[John Badertscher]

I've heard people talking about "flipping the trigger." I've heard it described but I'm not sure I really get it.

Anyone have any input.

[Rodney Robbins]

This is something you can learn yourself at the range--just set up a target at various distances and see how fast you can put 6 shots in the A-zone without having a miss.

I think you'll find your speed very much depends on what you are trying to do. At arms length, I can pretty much just look at the target to confirm my gun is still somewhere in the middle and crank off shots. At 7 yards, I need to start slowing down to shoot all center hits. At 25 yards, forget it, I have to slow down and follow through a LOT and split my focus between the sights and the trigger pull.

So my suggestion is to go out and see for yourself what is possible for YOU.

[Rodney Robbins]

Just wanted to add that Bill Drills (multiple shots on one target), give you time to SEE and FEEL what the gun is doing while a double tap might not.

At first, some shooters may not have enough attention to focus on the gun and the recoil through even two shots. By shooting 5-10 shots, your focus can drift away and SOME time during the string, it will probably come back. Then you'll actually see the gun running and feel how the recoil pulse is traveling up and down your arms. THEN, you can take that awareness and work on just a couple of shots at a time.

This is one of those things that is hard to explain but clear once you've done it yourself.

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Ideally, in a perfect world, I strive for "FIST" size groups, no matter what the distance. I call them "controlled pairs" because I am controlling the speed to achieve the group size I want. But if the targets are close, I'll hammer the shots and hold them in the 8" circle on the TSA or IDPA target.And if you can hold them in a 8" circle (and develop the proper cadence like Rick says by varying your speed depending on the distance) then you're good to go, too. :cool:

[Paul Sharp]

"I've heard people talking about "flipping the trigger." I've heard it described but I'm not sure I really get it."


Are you talking about allowing your trigger finger to come fully forward rather than ride the trigger and work the reset?

If so, the way DR worked it with me, (2001 so it might have been changed), was to move my finger straight back treating the trigger itself almost as if it were just a speed bump. Something my finger pushes through as it travels backwards. Then flick your finger forward off of the trigger, just like flicking lint or something off of your sleeve. This allows the trigger to move fully forward.

I run multiple weapon systems. The reset on my AR, MP5, Bennelli and Beretta are all different so attempting to work the reset on one usually resulted in some sort of trigger freeze when I would switch over to another. I have had conversations with instructors at other schools that run into this issue and they teach the same flick or flip approach.

After a few years of training this I have found there is no difference in times. I'm faster now, but that is a result of training, not necessarily that I slap instead of riding the reset.

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Right on, Paul... :cool:

I don't teach the "short re-set" of the trigger technique (nor do I use it). It's OK for matches, mind you, but it could get you killed on the street. :eek:

Instead, I come completely OFF the trigger every time. That way, no matter what weapons platform you use, coming completely off the trigger will make the gun run every time. No "freeze ups" or hang ups, ever. :cool:

[Al Morgan]

OK, so, I don't have to worry about getting a short reset, right? :confused: Good! That's one less thing I have to master. :cool:

[C. Coburn]

OK, so, I don't have to worry about getting a short reset, right? :confused: Good! That's one less thing I have to master. :cool:

But isn't the "short reset" technique much faster?? :confused:

[John Badertscher]

Made something of a breakthrough with technique this weekend. Shot as well as I ever have. Trigger pull still needs improvement. Still it's amazing what a little focus on technique can do for your marksmanship.

It may seem self-evident, but more and more I've realized about firearms training is that no single class is the answer. You've got to train, and practice, and train and practice more.

No short-cuts.

[C. Coburn]

What?? No single class is the answer? :confused: I thought Fist-Fire was the answer! ;)

[John Badertscher]

What?? No single class is the answer? :confused: I thought Fist-Fire was the answer! ;)

If you can master Fist-Fire in one class/day, than more power to you. :p

Seriously each time I go back to see DR, it's like unlocking a door and I see the results in my shooting. He tweaks something, or I make a connection and suddenly I make significant progress until I get to another locked door.

It doesn't matter whether you're a novice, unskilled, or experienced, Fist-Fire is a scientific method where consistent technique achieves consistent results. The more I think understand Fist-Fire, the more I realize how much thought, time and experience went into quantifying it.

I guess my point is that people need to keep going back to improve.