Optic or iron?

[Al Morgan]

I know there are two different categories for rifle/carbine in TSA competition. But what is better for street survival? Optic or iron sights? :confused:

Inquiring minds want to know! :cool:

Al

[Michael Thompson]

All I can tell you is I love my Eotech

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Red Dot Optical Sights (EOtech, Aimpoint, etc.) ROCK up close...:cool:

And probably out to about 100 yards, too. After that glass with magnification really rules the day.

Iron (peep) sights are good, but not as fast as the Red Dots up close, and not as accurate as a scope at distance...

[John Badertscher]

I guess it depends on what type of shooting you anticipate: indoor/CQB? Outdoor <100yds, or 0-300 yards.

For the first two any reflex/aimpoint/holo sight is decidedly the fastest inside of 100 yards. As such it's probably going to be the most functional for your needs. If you anticipate doing any shooting beyond 100 yards, or would like the ability, than a magnified optic is solid choice.

One advantage to magnified optics is that you can look into shadows created by rooms/windows/doors in an urban environment. You can't do this with a reflex sight. During the First Battle of Fallujah they kept finding insurgents with a "third eye" in their foreheads. They sparked an investigation thinking a marine/s were executing insurgents instead what they found was that the ACOG allowed them to consistently make head shots by looking into a room where there was a shooter. How's that for shot placement?

I recommend the Trijicon AccuPoint if you want a versatile magnified optic. It doesn't go to true 1x, but at 1.25x lowest mag at CQB ranges it's at least as fast as irons, probably faster.

It WON'T be as fast at CQB as a red-dot.

[Rick Simes]

Optics are, quite simply, a force multiplier. They allow you to shoot faster, more accurately, in low/no light conditons, and from unconventional positions. Irons are fine for a well lit square range, but for anything else they're a poor choice. I like and use EoTech. However, the Aimpoint seems to be less problematic, and the battery life is amazing.

[Joe Ford]

While I agree with some of what's said to say irons are only suitable for a square well lit range is taking it way to far. Irons dont get dead batteries, washed out red dots in the wrong sunlight angle, are much more durable, generally never loose zero, and although it is possible ,getting loose rings bases mounts screws allmost never happens with irons. They also dont have to be turned on and adjusted and messed around with every time you get ready to shoot. You also never see back up sights for iron sights. Every body and their brother has backup dots, dashes, mounts, viewholes and numerous other backup devices for electronic and glass optics. Seams to me if they were the cure all why are there so many back up devices on the market ?

[John Badertscher]

I agree irons have their place but in comparison to speed and accuracy glass of any quality there is no comparison between the two. There are plenty of good quality optics that have battery/illumination life well in excess of a decade.

All things being equal, glass will beat irons every time.

[Joe Ford]

Optics have an edge in accuracy when they are working and havent been knocked around, damaged, get rain dropps on the lenses etc etc etc. I think you get my point. I dont feel they have an edge in speed as it relates to this thread. Yes if you are shooting a stage where you have a couple minutes to fiddle fart around at load and make ready and then start the timer they'll be faster. But defensive minded shooters arnt going to walk around with a locked and cocked rifle held at high ready. So if you want to talk one is faster the timer needs to start at the rifle coming out from under the bed, or the vehicle trunk or pickup gun rack or from the rubble of a tornado ravaged or flooded house where it may have been for quite some time, and getting one or two shots on a target that is less than 50 yards out. I just feel the durability and dependability and instant deployment capability of iron sights outweigh the the accuracy and target transition speed on a defensive survival weapon. Remember we are talking a defensive survival weapon, not a offensive or match weapon.

[John Badertscher]

We each make our own choices based on our needs and so your needs are different. In terms of reliability issues I'd argue that optics have easily proven themselves in combat for reliability, but if one breaks...yes there is a point to irons, but which are you going to use more often?

How many reports have you seen come out of the sandbox that says "man those ACOGs suck?"

If the point is to put as many rounds on target as quickly as possible. Optics beat irons with a stick.

[Joe Ford]

And that's just it, the point isnt to put as many shots on target as quickly as possible the point is to put one maybe 2 shots on target from a non ready stored condition as quickly and as reliably as possible. Again this discussion has nothing to do with the sandbox or combat. Bayonets have proven themselves reliable in combat, do you have one on your defensive rifle ? Honestly where is your rifle right now ? how many buttons, nobs, covers, lens filters ect do you have to mess with before you could hit a dog at 50 yards ?

[John Badertscher]

I'm sorry but a bayonet is a flawed analogy as it has no relevance in making the gun shoot better, faster or more accurately.

The point was that if an optic can survive the sandbox...it can survive the floor of your pickup.

Just two shots huh? I disagree but than you're entitled to as well.

[Rick Simes]

how many buttons, nobs, covers, lens filters ect do you have to mess with before you could hit a dog at 50 yards ?

None, If you have an Aimpoint you can leave it on for about 8 years. Don't use filters or covers, don't know anyone that does. My Aimpoint never gets turned off. Just pick up the damn rifle and shoot.

[Brad VanHorn]

The context of this question (or lack thereof) actually makes this question more interesting. "Street survival" has a lot of possible meanings, most of which will never be tested by any of us except in imaginative training. For the military, optics are a proven force multiplier and the current generation have proven rugged and reliable. Certainly optics have potential disadvantages - such as batteries, wandering zero, awkward light conditions. However, unless the world has come to an end and I can't get batteries or optics help, I think the advantages make them more worthwhile than not. I'm comfortable with the red dot on my AR15, though in the future I may replace it with something with some magnification.

[Michael Thompson]

I have the EOtech holo sight. I have banged my rifle around quite a bit and have not lost zero yet. I also have BUIS installed.
One advantage to the EOtech is that if there is any glass available you still have the dot. So a glob of mud or a broken corner of the glass does not disable the sight. It is accurate at longer distances if you lower intensity and make the dot and reticle finer.

I agree with John about the Accupoint.

I have a friend that has an ACOG on his AR and that is the bomb but it's pretty pricey and it takes some getting use to.

[Rick Simes]

If you've never tried it, cover up the front of your lens completely with tape, or whatever's handy. Now, go ahead and shoot, both eyes open of course, and you'll see no difference in speed or accuracy. Your eyes will superimpose the dot on the target even though your lens is completely obstructed. It doesn't matter if you've got dirt, mud, or blood on your lens you can still shoot.

[Larry Talbott]

With the eotech, you don't even have to turn it on inside of 25yrds. The square lens acts just like a camera does, just center your victim uh.. bad guy in the center of the lens and pull the trigger. This works very well in houses ect....

[Mike Wood]

None, If you have an Aimpoint you can leave it on for about 8 years. Don't use filters or covers, don't know anyone that does. My Aimpoint never gets turned off. Just pick up the damn rifle and shoot.

Rick,
That is a joke right? 8 years! Not to sound ignorant, OK I will:o, what type of batteries do they have that will last that long?
MW

[Frank Wilson]

The new ones are supposed to have very long, long battery life. But I ALWAYS have back up batteries in the gun. :cool:

[John Badertscher]

Rick,
That is a joke right? 8 years! Not to sound ignorant, OK I will:o, what type of batteries do they have that will last that long?
MW

Nope...not a joke and they use standard batteries.

Aimpoint's technology requires so little energy it gives you between 80,000-100,000 hours of battery life. You do the math. :)

[Bob Hensley]

Almost any optic will outperform any iron anytime, anyplace, anyconditions. Some of the optics with adjust themselves to anylighting conditions and put themselves to sleep when they are not needed. One will even recharge itself while just sitting in normal light. Optics are here to stay and while some are not as tough as irons they are getting pretty close to it. If you are making any kind of long range shots, again optics are the way to go. Go to any three gun match and look at the scores between tactical optic and tactical iron. Even with professions shooters using iron sights vs good shooters with optics, optics win. JMTCW:cool:

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

I don't look at it as a "either or" proposition...

How about having BOTH? :eek: ;) :cool:

BUIS (Back Up Iron Sights) and the optic(s) of your choice?? :)

[John Williams]

I am not a true fan of red dots, can suggest something else that works for me on my AR that is a KNS cross hair front sight I am building an upper and plan to install a KNS and remove the brush guards from my front sight to increase visibility.

A big problem with a KNS would be at night your not going to see it at all.

[Joe Ford]

The fact that "BUIS" is in our vocabulary proves my point.

[Paul Sharp]

I don't look at it as a "either or" proposition...

How about having BOTH? :eek: ;) :cool:

BUIS (Back Up Iron Sights) and the optic(s) of your choice?? :)



That's where I'm at. Redundancy is the way to go for me. The saying, "two is one, and one is none" has been proven enough at this point I think we could call it a truism.

Just got a bunch of surplus M14s. One had a broken front post, right out of the box. Things happen.