Stand and Deliver?

[E. Spears]

Question: Should you "stand and deliver" the shots or shoot and move?

I know many trainers preach shoot and move, but if I can hit better standing still, why not stand there and shoot?:confused:

[Ernie Johnson]

Assuming that you are talking about a lethal street fight scenario, typically, actual video tape footage of street incidents reveals that most people will try to run away (which is not a bad idea :o ) while others just stand there and freeze up due to fright. :(

I can draw a gun faster standing still, but getting off the line of attack seems to be in vogue these days. :cool:

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Question: Should you "stand and deliver" the shots or shoot and move?

Some "tacticool" trainers teach a cute little move of standing still and shooting, then taking one giant step off to the side to get off the line of attack... :rolleyes:

Somehow, they think they are off the line of attack at that point (yeah, right :rolleyes: ). Maybe if they were bullfighting in Argentina, on a trained bull that's all focused in on the red towel, that little maneuver might work. But in America, we can take a lesson from the PBR Rodeo Clowns: MOVE OR GET KILLED!! :eek:

But then on the other hand, I knew a guy on Seal Team 6 once who stood perfectly still while some gang bangers shot at him in a drive by shooting. I asked him why he didn't run for cover and he said,

"I thought if I just stood perfectly still they wouldn't be able to hit me." :eek: He was right...

[Brad VanHorn]

Question: Should you "stand and deliver" the shots or shoot and move?
Unfortunately this is situationally dependent and, in general, there will never be a cut and dry, right or wrong answer. If the nearest cover is 100yds away, then you may be better served to stand and fight. If all you have to do is duck to get behind hard cover, then get under cover and protect yourself before getting in the fight. There are practically infinite variables to this... What if there is a crowd behind your attacker? Are you going to shoot and risk hitting a bystander if you miss? What if you have a child with you? Are you going to pick up the child and run, drag them along? What if, what if... I think the general concensus is you should get to cover if the situation permits, but there is no one single solution to this problem.

[John Badertscher]

I'd imagine that if you're not going to try and get to cover.

You're committed to hiding behind a wall of your own bullets.

Unless of course you're in SEAL Team 6. :eek:

It always amazes me how much luck is involved in surviving a gunfight... no matter how good you are (though your odds improve considerably with training).

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

It always amazes me how much luck is involved in surviving a gunfight... no matter how good you are (though your odds improve considerably with training).

Yep...

There's ALWAYS luck in a gunfight, both GOOD and BAD, and we don't get to choose. But I believe that luck generally favors the prepared. Here's a quote form a pro golfer who was told how "lucky he was on that last hole"...

"Yep, the more I practice, the luckier I get." - Lee Travino

[Al Morgan]

So, do we stand and shoot? Or shoot and move? Or what?? :confused:

[Brad VanHorn]

In a self-defense scenario I believe you should attempt to escape or evade first (i.e. move). If this is not possible due to the circumstances (i.e. no cover available), then go on the offense and shoot. Learn to shoot, learn to move, learn to shoot and move... only you can make the call on what you will do when the time comes.

[Rick Simes]

If you are being attacked you need to explosively get off the line of attack and engage the BG. Simply put, if you want to live, MOVE. Cover or no cover, MOVE. Remember this is typically going to happen in the space of a few feet. You don't have the luxury of leisurely drawing your pistol and trading shots. Aggresiveness and violence of action are essential. Do some force on force excercies and you'll quickly see what works and what doesn't. With the excellent airsoft pistols that are available this is easily done. Simunitions is even better, but you would have to go to a school to use that.

[John Badertscher]

Rick

Do you generally speaking want to close or expand the distance between you and the attacker when you move off the line?

In other words do you want to make your shots easier? or do you want to make his shots harder?

[Brad VanHorn]

I don't disagree with getting off the line of attack, but movement needs a purpose, and moving for movement sake doesn't necessarily contribute to solving a life or death situation. As to whether you want to close or further distance yourself, you have to assess and decide for each situation - there are generalizations, but there is no one size fits all solution. So, without taking into account any of the million other possible contributing factors... If I were the aggressor (i.e. urban combat), I would probably opt to close the gap. If I'm defending myself, I would expect to move further away.

[John Badertscher]

I don't disagree with getting off the line of attack, but movement needs a purpose, and moving for movement sake doesn't necessarily contribute to solving a life or death situation. As to whether you want to close or further distance yourself, you have to assess and decide for each situation - there are generalizations, but there is no one size fits all solution. So, without taking into account any of the million other possible contributing factors... If I were the aggressor (i.e. urban combat), I would probably opt to close the gap. If I'm defending myself, I would expect to move further away.

It wasn't really clear, but I'm not really asking for how specifically to move...so much as the purpose of that movement.

Are you moving to make it harder for the BG to hit you? or easier for you to hit the BG. I imagine both could be accomplished either in closing or in opening the distance. If the default response is to get to cover if available, than I'd imagine you're trying to make it harder to hit you.

[Brad VanHorn]

It wasn't really clear, but I'm not really asking for how specifically to move...so much as the purpose of that movement.

Are you moving to make it harder for the BG to hit you? or easier for you to hit the BG. I imagine both could be accomplished either in closing or in opening the distance. If the default response is to get to cover if available, than I'd imagine you're trying to make it harder to hit you.
If it's self-defense, then I want to be harder to hit - this generally favors creating more distance.

[JKnapple]

I don't disagree with getting off the line of attack, but movement needs a purpose, and moving for movement sake doesn't necessarily contribute to solving a life or death situation. .

Myself I want to move to get off the center line - not the X. Some of the newer shooters come out and stay in line with the threat and that is what they are using foor a reason.

Anyway move to make it harder for the threat from reaction to aiming/hitting. If I can do this and get to cover so much the better. But I ask all; why stand where the threat is aiming or expects to aim.

AFA as it is harder to hit, that is what practice and trainng is for just as increasing the distance. I am willing to bet that most of us are better shooters than the street threat and practice more, and many will have some good training behind them. So why make it easy for the threat?

[Brad VanHorn]

Anyway move to make it harder for the threat from reaction to aiming/hitting. If I can do this and get to cover so much the better. But I ask all; why stand where the threat is aiming or expects to aim.
Again, I'm not disagreeing with everyone on the concept of moving off-line, moving to cover, etc., etc. I've taught these very concepts to many Marines. However, simply screaming "move!" (figuratively, not literally), so that you are just randomly moving isn't necessarily helpful. The option to move is generally a good one, but is totally situation dependent.

Here's an example... to my own discredit I've been cornered. I have a wall to my right and to my rear. I have an armed bad guy to my front (out of immediate reach), and his friend to my left (also out of reach). Where do you suggest I move? Yes, this is an exagerated scenario, but under these conditions my best option might be to stand there, pull pistol, and let fly. Short of running in circles I may not have the option to move without putting myself in greater jeopardy. Just additional food for thought...

[JKnapple]

Again, I'm not disagreeing with everyone on the concept of moving off-line, moving to cover, etc., etc. I've taught these very concepts to many Marines. However, simply screaming "move!" (figuratively, not literally), so that you are just randomly moving isn't necessarily helpful. The option to move is generally a good one, but is totally situation dependent.

Here's an example... to my own discredit I've been cornered. I have a wall to my right and to my rear. I have an armed bad guy to my front (out of immediate reach), and his friend to my left (also out of reach). Where do you suggest I move? Yes, this is an exagerated scenario, but under these conditions my best option might be to stand there, pull pistol, and let fly. Short of running in circles I may not have the option to move without putting myself in greater jeopardy. Just additional food for thought...

Then the question is mute as you state the circumstance.

Glad it worked out.

Jerry

[Brad VanHorn]

Thanks... I guess... :rolleyes:

Then the question is mute as you state the circumstance.

Glad it worked out.

Jerry

[Joe Ford]

From your corner senerio, granted I wasnt there and obviously what you did worked or you wouldnt be telling us about it. But my initial thought was to charge badguy number 1. Because no way to move off the line of both, but you can altleast move out of the way of one of them and bad guy one can become cover from bad guy two. Baasically the same tactic as getting caught in a near linear ambush, you charge the line thatway only one guy can shoot at you instead of the hole line.

[Paul Sharp]

For the most part, distance favors the trained. As you close with them, your accuracy goes up but so does theirs.

Overall it will be situationally dependant.