1911 thumb safety when drawing

[Eric Freel]

I was asked when do I take the safety off on a 1911 in relation to competing and self defense. My reply was the same for both. I take the safety off at a point between the muzzle clearing the holster and pointing the gun toward the target. More specifically it is off just after the gun starts its forward motion toward the target and before my other hand gets to the gun. Is this correct and safe? Or am I making a dangerous error?

Is there a time when you would draw and not take the safety off from a defensive point of view?

[Brad VanHorn]

I was asked when do I take the safety off on a 1911 in relation to competing and self defense. My reply was the same for both. I take the safety off at a point between the muzzle clearing the holster and pointing the gun toward the target. More specifically it is off just after the gun starts its forward motion toward the target and before my other hand gets to the gun. Is this correct and safe? Or am I making a dangerous error?
The 99% solution (there are always exceptions :) ) in FIST-FIRE is we disengage the safety when we roll out from the open guard. Without adding a painful description, put simply you draw, bring the hands together and index, and then as you roll out you disengage the safety.

Is there a time when you would draw and not take the safety off from a defensive point of view?
There are differing schools of thought on this subject. My opinion, based on my one personal experience, is that sometimes the mere introduction of a firearm will help defuse the situation, which is what happened in my one incident. In my case, merely drawing the weapon was enough, and taking the weapon off safe (which I couldn't do anyway since it was a Glock 22 ;) ) would not have been necessary. Some people will suggest that drawing the weapon means you should be completely prepared to use it, and thus the safety should be disengaged.

[Mike Wood]

Is this correct and safe? Or am I making a dangerous error?
Is there a time when you would draw and not take the safety off from a defensive point of view?

Eric, IMO you would be making a dangerous error if you did not take the safety off. If the gun is out the safety is off. Finger out of the trigger guard until your unloading on something/somebody. Competition/Real do it the SAME WAY every time. You will do in an emergency what has become habit in practice.

Brad is right in that sometimes the mere introduction of a firearm will diffuse the situation, but don't count on it. And you don't want to be pulling the trigger against an on-safe safety; which is what will happen if you get in the habit of having the safety on any time your gun is out.

Years ago when I first started riding a motorcycle I had borrowed a buddy's KZ-750 to use until my brand new 1200 Suzuki Bandit came in. I had 2 things happen to me that really opened my eyes and almost killed me at the same time. The 1st was I got in the habit of shutting the bike off using the key instead of the kill switch like I should have. This is a bad habit and here's why: I had the throttle stick one time and overrev the engine. When I had to pull the clutch in the extra time it took me to take my hand off the handlebar (not stable when the engine is screaming!) to reach across and turn the key off was not good for the engine or my safety. I trained myself to use the kill switch AT ALL TIMES whenever I turn the bike off after that. That's why it's there.

The next one was even more hair raising. I had gotten in yet another poor habit of using only the rear brake when I was slowly coming to a stop like at an intersection. One day I was rolling along at a good clip and the light changed, and being the green dumbass I was I had centered myself (even though I knew better) on the grease line in the center section of the road. I hit the rear brake (only- as was now motor memory) and the bike just slid right into the intersection just as the light was changing:eek:. Fortunately for me the drivers were alert and did not run over my stupid ass. I went directly to a parking lot to practice panic stops using the FRONT brake. I never brake without using the front brake anymore unless that tire is flat or something.

I have had many many close calls on motorcycles over the years since then and have come out unscathed for the most part. I could tell you more stories about why you need a full face helmet- and protective gear, why you don't get in the habit of grabbing too much throttle why the bike is laid over etc. etc. but that would be for another forum. My point is here: you can't have 15 different ways to do something in an emergency or you will suffer the consequences.
MW

[Paul Sharp]

The 99% solution (there are always exceptions :) ) in FIST-FIRE is we disengage the safety when we roll out from the open guard. Without adding a painful description, put simply you draw, bring the hands together and index, and then as you roll out you disengage the safety......


That is how I do it. I also take a similar approach with long guns. Safety on until the weapon comes up.

Read about, heard about, and observed how it could happen, far too many accidents when gear and an off-safe long gun collide. Particularly getting in and out of vehicles. I heard a few stories regarding some PSD guys and missing calves, achilles and other lower extremities...:eek:

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Not only that, but we shouldn't be taking the safety OFF until the muzzle is covering the INTENDED TARGET and THEN and ONLY THEN if we have ALREADY DECIDED that we need to actually shoot!! :eek:

Just because I THINK the target is a THREAT does NOT mean I KNOW the target is a threat. And I don't need to be taking the safety OFF UNTIL I have made the decision to actually shoot. :cool:

Covering a suspect with the muzzle with safety on is one thing, but covering a suspect with safety off is quite another. It gets spooky out there. :o Better SAFE than sorry! :eek:

Food for thought...

D.R.

[John Badertscher]

Not only that, but we shouldn't be taking the safety OFF until the muzzle is covering the INTENDED TARGET and THEN and ONLY THEN if we have ALREADY DECIDED that we need to actually shoot!! :eek:

Food for thought...

D.R.

So taking the safety off is part of the trigger pull sequence?

When would you put it back on? After you're sure there is no threat? Or after the target you are shooting goes down (if there is another threat, you'd then take safety off)? I hope that's clear.

I presume that takes some practice.

[Tom Haught]

WOW! :eek: This is getting deep...but I need to think about these things. I never even thought about such things like this before. I carry a Kimber Pro Carry. I now wonder if the 1911 was the right choice for me. When do I put the safety back on?? :confused:

[Brad VanHorn]

I carry a Kimber Pro Carry. I now wonder if the 1911 was the right choice for me.
It really depends on your familiarity and skill with the weapon. If you haven't already done so, get some coaching/training and spend some quality time getting to know your gun. The 1911 is a fine choice, but like any weapon, you need to know your weapon to be truly effective.

When do I put the safety back on?? :confused:
When you are certain the threat is neutralized you can apply the safety and holster accordingly.

[Joe Ford]

So a handgun with a manual safety is dangerous to point at a suspected BG with the safety off, but a Glock without a safety is ok ? I dont see the difference. The safety comes off when the muzzel gets angled towards the target. The safety goes on as the first part of holster. That's the way I do it in practice, that's the way I do it at matches thats the way I'll do it for real. Just not feasable to practice and play games one way and expect to be able to do something completely different under high stress. Go watch a USPSA or IDPA match and see how many people put the safety on and off in between each target or firing position. Learn to use your trigger finger as a safety when moving or not actively shooting have it outside the trigger guard.

[Mark Teixeira]

I subscribe to the mentality that if you, a non-law enforcement trained individual are pointing a gun at someone, then you should be shooting. By that I mean, the gun should not be pointed at someone unless you have already made the decision to shoot.

That being said, I would say there is a difference between pointing a Glock or other DAO pistol without the safety on and a 1911 because of the force and length of trigger pull required. A single action trigger can go off much easier than a double action from nervous muscle energy.

I personally do not recommended pointed a weapon at anything you are not intending to shoot unless you are properly trained to do so. I have read that it takes approximately 2 seconds to pull the trigger when you are pointing a weapon at some one becuase you have to decipher that the person you are pointing a weapon at is up to no good and decide to shoot. Whereas, it takes less than 2 seconds for someone with descent skills to draw from concealment and shoot the first shot. The premise of the discussion being, you actually put yourself at a disadvantage by pointing the weapon at them because you have tipped your hand and are now waiting for them to decide what the result should be. In a personal defense scenario, I'm not pointing unless I'm shooting.

Just my .02, if it's worth that much.

Tex

[Joe Ford]

force and trigger travel is irrelevant if your finger isnt on the trigger unless your shooting. You should also compare both on current series 80 or other firing pin block 1911's and many of the striker fired pistols. Not a hole lot of difference. I disagree with the dont draw unless your shooting, lots of situations where you may want to point and not shoot. And I also intend to have my gun in hand if I know there's gonna be trouble and not tapping the handle saying, "I'm your Hucklebee"

[Brad VanHorn]

If I have to draw, then I suspect it is likely I will have to shoot. However, I agree with Joe, there are certainly possible situations where you might want/need to point without shooting. Assuming I must shoot because I have drawn and/or pointed my weapon places undesirable constraints on my actions beforehand...

I've certainly never read anything that would suggest it is faster to draw and shoot than it is to engage with an already drawn weapon, and I would not believe anything of the like without some serious research and demonstration. I will argue the process of detecting, identifying, assessing, and reacting to a threat is not shortened by having a gun in the holster rather than in the hand. Similarly, if you are so capable as to draw and shoot as a simultaneous action to the threat assessment, then I suspect you would likely be proportionally faster still if the gun is already presented. I'll be happy to do some airsoft or live-fire drills on this one if anyone wants to help test...