Home defense...

[Brad VanHorn]

I feel like I'm the only one who thinks a 12ga shotgun is not Gods gift to home defense. Certainly a shotgun has intimidation value, but they are usually long, heavy, lots of recoil, limited ammo, etc. All these things can be overcome with some training, but this is not reality for most people. I just don't see a 12ga with buckshot as a great choice for most people to grab in the middle of the night to go check out a strange noise. Most people do not have, and never will have, the training for CQB with a shotgun (or really any gun for that matter). If you plan to simply lock the bedroom door and wait for the cavalry, then perhaps the shotgun will be useful to blow large holes in your door to scare someone away. Otherwise, I think most people are probably better served at such close quarters with a handy carbine (whether rifle or pistol caliber), or maybe a handgun. I guess I'm just venting a little, because I keep seeing all these 12ga shotgun recommendations on other forums, and I disagree this is a great choice for most. Am I alone?

[Larry Talbott]

+ 1 Brad. I am in full agreement, and i have training with both weapons. I still prefer the rifle.

[Rick Simes]

Brad,

I can't agree more. Granted there are always exceptions, but for the vast majority of situations the handgun is definetly a more logical choice. I love my shotguns and carbines and train with them all the time. However, when it comes to the realistic (not a zombie uprising) use of a home defense weapon the handgun is the way to go.

[Michael Thompson]

If you listen to some extoll the virtue of the the 12 ga., a lot of times it goes like this " I don't even have to worry about aiming, just point in the general direction and shoot"

The shotgun is the choice of many because it is the lazy way out..no need to practice etc.

In my opinion that is

[Brad VanHorn]

I definitely agree with your thoughts on how some (or maybe even most) people justify the shotgun selection. Unfortunately I think we all probably agree to one extent or another that none of their reasoning is valid. Shotguns do require practice, and they don't aim by themselves or automatically hit everything in the general direction of fire. Much like the myth of 45ACP stopping power, the idea of 12ga supremacy for defense won't die...

If you listen to some extoll the virtue of the the 12 ga., a lot of times it goes like this " I don't even have to worry about aiming, just point in the general direction and shoot"

The shotgun is the choice of many because it is the lazy way out..no need to practice etc.

In my opinion that is

[Rick Simes]

If you listen to some extoll the virtue of the the 12 ga., a lot of times it goes like this " I don't even have to worry about aiming, just point in the general direction and shoot"

The shotgun is the choice of many because it is the lazy way out..no need to practice etc.



Every time I hear someone recommending a shotgun for HD the conversation sounds something like the above. The reality of it is, all firearms must be skillfully used by a competent person. I've seen plenty of folks at the range and in training screw up with a pump shotgun. This include cops and average civilians. If you don't ever use it, what do you think will happen? Not to mention the other issues of deploying a long gun in a home/CQB enviroment.

[Joe Ford]

Well I was tracking until you said "handy carbine" I didnt agree but at least was seeing your point till you threw that in. How is a handy carbine going to be any better for the untrained or barely trained home defender ? The short comings you mentioned of the shotgun would also apply to the carbine. Plus the carbine has the disadvantage of a lot greater penetration and only a single projectile. Most people have sheet rock walls, most people dont live alone, most people wont think about penetrating walls when under stress. A shotgun loaded with buckshot is alot more point shoot and hit than a carbine, a shotgun is alot easier to learn to at least get some shot on target at 10-20 yards than a handgun or carbine. The shotgun like the carbine gives you a much better less lethal option than a handgun. Granted someone with no training and unwilling to get any is much better served with a ballbat and a can of pepper spray. But your argument doesnt hold any water, Shotgun bad cause it's long so use a carbine of the same length. Shotgun bad cause people not trained so use carbine or pistol that they also arnt trained at.

[Brad VanHorn]

There's no doubt we agree to disagree, because I disagree with most of what you said. About all I'll take in your counter is the possibility of family being in the line of fire as well as reduced penetration. Certainly having family in the line of fire is a significant concern, but I think you have no real advantage with any weapon there. If the danger zone of a bullet, pellet, slug, or whatever threatens a family member, then you probably shouldn't be shooting, but this could easily be a whole other topic discussion. To compare weapons, shotguns typically have much greater recoil, are usually heavier, only get a handful of rounds, are at least as long if not longer than a carbine, are no different in point shooting, though I'll say I think the carbine has the advantage there due to reduced recoil and lighter weight, and I think the average carbine has controls (safety lever for example) which are easier to use. I certainly don't buy the argument a shotgun is easier to learn and shoot. So, a long, heavy, less agile, slow rate of fire weapon with lots of recoil and limited ammo is a better choice for people, whether trained or not? Choose whatever you like, and recommend whatever you like. I have a shotgun, I've trained with a shotgun (personally and professionally), and I'm comfortable employing a shotgun, but I think neither I nor the average person is better off with a shotgun. My admitted exception to this is the ensconded defender scenario, but even then I think it's a toss up. A carbine or pistol offers more flexibility and less liabilities in my opinion; your opinion differs and that's your prerogative.

Well I was tracking until you said "handy carbine" I didnt agree but at least was seeing your point till you threw that in. How is a handy carbine going to be any better for the untrained or barely trained home defender? The short comings you mentioned of the shotgun would also apply to the carbine. Plus the carbine has the disadvantage of a lot greater penetration and only a single projectile. Most people have sheet rock walls, most people dont live alone, most people wont think about penetrating walls when under stress. A shotgun loaded with buckshot is alot more point shoot and hit than a carbine, a shotgun is alot easier to learn to at least get some shot on target at 10-20 yards than a handgun or carbine. The shotgun like the carbine gives you a much better less lethal option than a handgun. Granted someone with no training and unwilling to get any is much better served with a ballbat and a can of pepper spray. But your argument doesnt hold any water, Shotgun bad cause it's long so use a carbine of the same length. Shotgun bad cause people not trained so use carbine or pistol that they also arnt trained at.

[Joe Ford]

Shotguns are only heavier and longer than a carbine if you choose a heavier shotgun or a shorter lighter carbine, both platforms can be short and light or long and heavy, a side by side coach gun is pretty handy. So the length weight issue is a wash Penetration is a significant feature of a firearm and cant just be thrown out of a comparision because it doesnt support your opinion. so assuming number 4 to 1 buckshot which is effective on a human target but much less effective on a target after two layers of sheetrock advantage goes to the shotgun. Hard to reach safeties ? shotguns and carbines can be found with safties in good and bad places, I dont see the typical top of frame thumb safety on many shotguns being a hard to reach. so that issue is a wash also. A shotgun is easier to hit a target with, it wont fill a hole room with lead but it has a alot more spread than a single bullet. I dont see many carbines shooting skeet. The only edge I can see a carbine having is increased capacity which may or may not be an issue to ever arise in a home defense situation. But I'll admit it's much better to have and not need than need and not have. A shotgun also generally has more recoil and takes longer to reload. The shotgun has a long long history of effective use. The Germans complained bitterly about Americans winchester pump 12 trench guns because of the devastation they created in the trenches, narry a peep was heard about the M-1 carbine.

[Brad VanHorn]

Let's start with weapons by comparison:

- Remington 870 with 18" barrel is over 38" long and weighs almost 8 lbs. (unloaded), has approx. 20 ft/lbs free recoil depending on the load (20 ft/lbs is a light load; heavy loads are closer to 30 ft/lbs), and offers 7rd capacity. (After several years working in a gun store, I'll suggest few have 18" barrels - most people have a 24", 26", or 28", further extending the length of the weapon.)

- Bushmaster M-4 with 16" barrel is approx 33" with stock extended (roughly 29" retracted), weighs almost 7 lbs. with 30rds of ammo, has approx. 3 1/2 ft/lbs free recoil, and the magazine capacity speaks for itself - plus reloading for 30 more rounds takes about 1/2 second.

- Beretta Storm in 9mm with a 16" barrel is approx. 30", weighs approx. 5 1/2 lbs., has approx. 2 1/2 ft/lbs free recoil, and can use Beretta pistol mags ranging from 10-30 rds.

Why does length matter? The average interior door is 32", the average hallway width is maybe 40". Unless you live in a giant empty one room house, you have to negotiate doorways, hallways, furniture, etc., and the shorter weapon offers significant advantage in manueverability and reaction time to target. Further, extra length gives possible disarm advantages to an attacker. The defender doesn't need another 10" of weapon sticking out in front of him/her for an attacker to grab or deflect.

Why does weight matter? Again, manueverability and reaction time, as well as physical endurance. Lighter is more agile and less tiresome. A possible advantage to greater weight would be if you plan to buttstroke, but I find this an unlikely reaction for most people.

Why does felt recoil matter? I can hold a Beretta Storm at hip level in one hand and still put rds center mass without blinking. A 12ga requires much greater effort to maintain recoil management. At close range you get no appreciable pattern spread with buckshot, and if you miss, follow up shots require more recovery time due to more violent recoil.

Why does ammo capacity and reloading speed matter? Self evident in my opinion. I'll take 30 5.56 over 7 12ga any day. How fast can you reload your 870 without an awkward speed loader? If it's less than 2-3 times that of a mag change, I'll buy lunch. As to a double barrel, yup it's handy; if you miss it's a club.

Penetration issues... Ammo selection offers alternatives which can mitigate some of this concern. Further, how many cases have you read of a defender hitting a family member instead of an intruder while firing in the home? I haven't read one. Most that would be similar to this were no accidental (they meant to shoot the family member). Also, I'll have to pull the study, but 5.56 stops quickly in sheetrock, especially compared to 9mm. Is this as good as buckshot? I'll have to find the data; personally I think you overrate this concern.

Ease of controls... I've been using the same 11-87 Police shotgun for over 12 years, and I always have to double check the button safety, because, "is to the left 'on safe' or is it 'off safe'?" With the AR/M4, flip the lever and we are ready. In the middle of the night, in the dark, just having woken up, do you want to wonder or do you want to know how to manipulate the safety?

Ease of hitting... at 10-20 yds with a rifle/shotgun/carbine, you can practically throw rds at the target and not miss. With a pistol this might be an issue for the untrained. As for shooting skeet, now we are going into the absurd. Birdshot at 30yds patterns significantly, buckshot pattern at 10yds is negligible. Nonetheless, about the furthest shot I could take inside my home is probably 10yds, and again, the increased recoil and muzzle blast I get from a 12ga does not make this worthwhile to me.

As to the anecdote about 12ga vs .30 Carbine, I've interviewed lots of war vets as part of professional investigative duties, and invariably these claims are much overstated. I still have Viet Nam vets claim the M16 will spin people around and knock them off their feet - yeah, maybe with a buttstroke. Oh yes, and the 45ACP could throw savages completely out of the trenches... 9mm won't even penetrate clothing... I'm sure there are others I'm overlooking... Plus the .30 Carbine (130 FMJ) is barely up to 9mm comparison. This whole point carries little credibility with me.

I'm out of time... I don't agree with your counterpoints, but this is why we have freedom of choice :)

[Michael Thompson]

Although this is a generalization I would say that someone who owns a handy carbine such as a M-4 style weapon or a Beretta Storm, Highpoint carbine etc., practices more than those with a shotgun.


One thing that can't be overlooked is once you fire that shotgun you really have less control of each individual pellet than you do with a single bullet from the carbine.

And personally if I was on the criminal side of the spectrum I would say it would be much easier to relieve a homeowner attempt to clear rooms with a shotgun. A little harder with a carbine.. and very risky if he had a handgun and was experienced at shooting from a guard position.