Hunter/Sniper Rifle

[E. Spears]

I'm thinking about buying/building a multi purpose bolt rifle in .308 that I can use for hunting, target shooting and sniping (if the need arises). Any sugestions on brand, barrel length, optics, etc? :confused:

I would like to be able to shoot out to 1,000 yards with it, too. :cool:

[GutShot John]

The optic is the bigger consideration than the rifle.

A Remington 700 SPS Tactical (20" barrel) more than fits the bill for what you need for ~$600. Out to 1000 yards just requires a bit of training, practice and doping your optic.

The bigger cost is the optic and ammunition. I'd say you really need to think about spending at least $1500-2000 for the total package.

As for optic...how much do you want to spend? SWFA Super Sniper or Vortex have great reputations for optics but realistically they are bargain basement.

I'd look at Pride-Fowler for ease of use.

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

When I started the Gun club at Damn Neck, VA we made Carlos Hathcock an honorary member. :cool:

Needless to say, I got to spend a lot of time with him, and picked his brain every chance I could on this very subject. :)

The man was a walking history lesson and one of the greatest rifle shots of all time, not to mention a REAL AMERICAN HERO. :cool:

That said, he and I agreed that the .308 is really a 600 - 800 yard gun. :eek:
You'll have a job getting out to 1,000 yards. You'll have to play with bullet weights and powder, as the case just isn't quite big enough. :( It can be done, two of my friends did it, I saw the targets they shot. But it took them a while and a lot of custom reloading to get out there. We are, after all, talking about 40' of drop at that distance. :eek:

So, my question is, Why .308? :confused:

[E. Spears]

I wish I could have met the man myself. A real warrior.:cool: The reason I was thinking about .308 is that in the event of an economic collapse of the country, I could scrounge military ball ammo like that used in the M60. That and I heard the .308 is very acurate, too. :cool:

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

I wish I could have met the man myself. A real warrior.:cool: The reason I was thinking about .308 is that in the event of an economic collapse of the country, I could scrounge military ball ammo like that used in the M60. That and I heard the .308 is very acurate, too. :cool:

The military ball won't cut it at that range, plus it's not as accurate as match/hunting ammo. There are loads available to do it, but why my question still is: Why.308? It's not the right round for the job IMO, so, what are the pros & cons? :confused:

[E. Spears]

Well, the police snipers use it, so I thought it would be a good choice. It's readily available and should be easy to scrounge ammo if need be. :cool:

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Well, the police snipers use it, so I thought it would be a good choice. It's readily available and should be easy to scrounge ammo if need be. :cool:

Actually I just read the stats on police sniper shootings. The National Average was 76 yards! :eek: So, I think for the LEO venue, the .308 is good. It has low recoil, great accuracy and a wide range of penetration control options, so it's a good all around choice. FWIW:I'm seeing the .223 coming on strong as sniper round for police also as of late.

I think a short varmint barrel would be my choice for urban use, and the .308 would be just fine. But for long range there are better rounds, but then you need to take into consideration barrel life also. Everything's a trade off, or so it seems. :(

As far as scrounging ammo goes, the 30-06 is probably the most popular (next to the 30-30 that is) round laying around in peoples garages. And it's got about 200 fps more than the .308 on average (or at least it used to).

The guy we really need to chime in on this is thread is ZIG Hensley, as he's more up to date on the latest and greatest sniper stuff than I am... :cool:

[GutShot John]

When I started the Gun club at Damn Neck, VA we made Carlos Hathcock an honorary member. :cool:

Needless to say, I got to spend a lot of time with him, and picked his brain every chance I could on this very subject. :)

The man was a walking history lesson and one of the greatest rifle shots of all time, not to mention a REAL AMERICAN HERO. :cool:

That said, he and I agreed that the .308 is really a 600 -800 yard gun. :eek:
You'll have a job getting out to 1,000 yards. You'll have to play with bullet weights and powder, as the case just isn't quite big enough. :( It can be done, two of my friends did it, I saw the targets they shot. But it took them a while and a lot of custom reloading to get out there. We are, after all, talking about 40' of drop at that distance. :eek:

So, my question is, Why .308? :confused:

Because it's cheap, accurate and effective out to 1000 yards but my earlier post was overstating the case a bit.

There are better performers at that range (.300WM, .338LAP, various Norma cartridges) but it will get the job done for a fraction of the cost. Cartridges have come a very long way since Hathcock's day though I get the impression he was talking more about effectiveness than he was about accuracy. Beyond 600 yards .308 effectiveness begins to drop but is still quite lethal. USMC states the max effective range for M40 Sniper Rifle is 1000 yards. Army states MER for M24 is 800 yards. For the average shmoe 800 yards is more realistic. http://www.snipercentral.com/308.htm

With modern powders, designs and data/dope it's certainly possible to get a .308 out to 1000 yards with training/practice. I've seen several Marine snipers do it fairly consistently. I'm not that good of a shot and I've shot a semi-auto FAL out to 800 yards (Using Federal Match) pretty consistently on torso-sized (18"x24") steel. Properly doping the rifle/optic/cartridge can get you beyond that but you won't do it on the cheap. You'll need a $2K scope, $300 in 20-40MOA canted base/rings not to mention $1K in decent ammo to practice with. All this on top of a rifle itself. 800 yards is much more cost effective as the marginal cost starts to rise significantly from there.

1SG James Gilliland has the record for longest kill shot with 7.62 NATO at 1350 yards (7/10 mile) in Ramadi Iraq. Depending on zero and factoring maximum ordinate drop at that distance is 12-20 feet from POA/POI. Official data tables say the drop is ~20feet, the article and Gilliland himself say the aimed 12 feet high. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/1506760/Sniper-shot-that-took-out-an-insurgent-killer-from-three-quarters-of-a-mile.html

At 1000 yards distance velocity for M118 (175gr) is about 1200fps (still supersonic). Kinetic energy at that range is roughly equivalent (or superior) to .357 magnum (125gr at 1300fps) at the muzzle. KE=1/2(M*(V*V)) so M118 has about 6861 joules at 1000 yards where the .357 Magnum has about 6844 joules at the muzzle. http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/snipersustainment/Table2.htm

Obviously it takes a skilled shooter with proper gear to get out to that range but shooting a .308 is still effective at 1000 yards, more importantly hitting something at that range is not really hugely difficult if you have the proper dope (not the kind you smoke). This can't be done with standard NATO ball (M80, 147gr), bargain basement scopes, base/rings on a basic bolt rifle.

It's worth noting that .308 is loaded to slightly higher pressures than 7.62 NATO which is the inverse of .223 vs. 5.56 where the NATO round is hotter.

[GutShot John]

A realllllly long shot for a police sniper is 200 yards so it's not a good comparison for 1000 yard shooting.

Relevant to terminal ballistics if memory serves .308 doesn't fragment at any range. 5.56 will fragment pretty reliably inside of 190 yards out of an 20" barrel and even out of a 12" barrel fragmentation range is ~100 yards. At <100 yards I'd agree the 5.56 is probably a more accurate/effective choice than .308 if you don't require penetration of a barrier/armor.

Getting back to .308 inside of 200 yards 147 is marginally more accurate than 175 with its faster velocity. Beyond 300 yards is where heavier 167-175gr projectiles start to shine and heavier bullets are required to go beyond 600 yards.

Don't think you're going to hit a target at 1000 yards without significant money, time, training and practice.

[ZIG]

If you want to get the best bang for the buck, and you really want something that will perform down range. Something that won't cost you an arm and a leg. Then look at the Savage FP-10 in the 308Win and either the Super Sniper scope or a Busnell 3200 scope put some money in good rings and bases. With the money you have saved from buying higher dollar rifles and scopes, get some reloading supplies and start shooting. While the .308 is at best an 800 yard round (thats right where it starts going subsonic):eek: you can get some real good information about shooting. After you either out grown the long range problems with the 308 or shot out your barrel you can think of rebarreling you FP-10. This is a fairly easy and cheap thing to do with Savage rifles (hence being cheap but damn good shooters):D to something like the 260 Remington. Its a 6.5mm bullet on a 308 case and since you should be already reloading and since you should have all these 308 case around. You will have a real 1000 yard stick in something that does not beat the shit out of you when you shoot it and is fairly cost effective to shoot. You might find that the 6.5 is not only a good longe range bullet but damn good at putting meat on you table. :cool:

[GutShot John]

Given the higher pressures of .308 I'm pretty sure all .308 is supersonic (>1125fps) to 1000 yards, even M80 ball (7.62 NATO) is supersonic to 1000 yards. There is a lot data that corroborates that.

6.5 is certainly a nice choice if you're handloading, the 6.5LAP has a lot of proponents. I do think there is virtue in getting a commonly available round and being able to use military ball if nothing else is available.

[ZIG]

John, not trying to pick a fight with you. However what ballistic tables show on paper and what is going on down range don't always say the same thing. Most Match bullets are in the 168 to 180gr for the 308. While the answer is yes some of them are still supersonic, most are not. That allot of bullet filling up not much of case. As far as shooting military ball in you rifle, yeah you can do it and yeah it will go bang but, its a lighter bullet around 147gr and made by the dump truck load and not allot of inspection of it weight, length, and ballance. Take a look at match ammo, more the bullet than anything else and you'll find they are almost perfect. Almost that is and still long range guys will weight and measure them and put them into lots that are closer to each other than they were as a whole. Most reload and if you are going to reload you might as well reload something that travels allot better. Simply put the 6.5 out performs the 308 in almost every way. OH yeah the bullets are cheaper and have better cross section than 308. 140gr vs 168gr just better.:cool:

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

It's worth noting that .308 is loaded to slightly higher pressures than 7.62 NATO which is the inverse of .223 vs. 5.56 where the NATO round is hotter.The .308 is a short 30-06. Less case capacity, hence increased pressures. I never said it wouldn't reach out there (neither did Carlos) but he preferred the 30-06 for the same money and it's more popular. It's a lot easier to find ammo at Wally World, in the neighbors garage or at any hunting lodge. :cool:

DISCLAIMER: I really LOVE the .308. :) I love the M14. :cool: I like the short actions guns, short and handy carbines and shotguns. But my point is the 30-06 is probably a better choice for the described scenario (survival). Considering that you loose 50% of your velocity at 1,000 yards, an extra couple of hundred FPS would be useful.

[SLIDE LOCK]

I can't hardly see a target at 1,000 yards let alone hit it. :o

I don't live in the sandbox, I'm not an assassin, so I don't see the need for long distant shooting.

If we are talking about hunting, survival/self defense and/or urban combat, you'd better be able to hit threats and shoot for food inside of 300 yards. The deer at 1,000 yds. needs to be stalked and the Bad Guy out that far is not a threat IMO. :cool:

[GutShot John]

John, not trying to pick a fight with you. However what ballistic tables show on paper and what is going on down range don't always say the same thing.

No worries I know you're a good guy. If however you're not using those tables what are you using to collect your dope? Just trial and error? Those numbers are used by snipers and other precision shooters as a solid baseline. Agreed that they're not directly relevant unless you're shooting at sea level, 59 degrees F and other presumed conditions but they're the starting point for gathering and figuring out dope and are good for illustration.

For instance my training is that every 2500' elevation change, every 20 degree temp change and every 25% humidity change each change zero by 1moa. So I start at a specific elevation, temp and humidity and calculate from there. On hotter days you'll get more velocity, on cooler days you'll get less. If I lacked data on a particular round I'd use the manufacturers data to start collecting dope.

Most Match bullets are in the 168 to 180gr for the 308. While the answer is yes some of them are still supersonic, most are not. That a lot of bullet filling up not much of case.

I can only go by my experience and data. All the ones I use/seen are supersonic beyond 800 (and most beyond 1000) yards assuming it's not a super cold day. Specifically I'm referring to M118 is a NATO round and should be slightly slower than .308 match. The heavier bullet will stay supersonic much longer than the lighter bullet. I'd be curious to see which loads aren't for my own doping purposes.

As far as shooting military ball in you rifle, yeah you can do it and yeah it will go bang but, its a lighter bullet around 147gr and made by the dump truck load and not allot of inspection of it weight, length, and ballance.

Agreed to a great extent but it also depends on the country of origin. South African, German, Aussie are all supersonic at sea level according to specifications. Velocity only increases the higher you goin elevation. I agree however that you're not going to be very accurate shooting 800-1000 yards with military ball. The point was simply that it's still supersonic.TO paraphrase a shooting buddy I don't buy surplus ammo from any country that pisses in its own drinking water.

Take a look at match ammo, more the bullet than anything else and you'll find they are almost perfect. Almost that is and still long range guys will weight and measure them and put them into lots that are closer to each other than they were as a whole. Most reload and if you are going to reload you might as well reload something that travels allot better. Simply put the 6.5 out performs the 308 in almost every way. OH yeah the bullets are cheaper and have better cross section than 308. 140gr vs 168gr just better.:cool:

Most reload for greater consistency. But collecting dope is a process of sampling and statistics. While not every round is the same, taken over a large data set, they average pretty well.

6.5 is a great little round and I'd say it's probably more efficient in many respects but given the stated need and skill level of the OP it may not be exactly what he's looking for.

If you're interested Bob I know a shooting school that's hosting a free (you pay board/food ~$50/day) shoot out on a 50000 acre ranch in Wyoming. The ranch is owned by Long Range International and the instructors are all combat snipers from the USMC. If you have .338 or .50BMG they can get you well out beyond a mile. Drop me a line with your email and I'll send you the particulars.

[GutShot John]

I can't hardly see a target at 1,000 yards let alone hit it. :o

I don't live in the sandbox, I'm not an assassin, so I don't see the need for long distant shooting.

If we are talking about hunting, survival/self defense and/or urban combat, you'd better be able to hit threats and shoot for food inside of 300 yards. The deer at 1,000 yds. needs to be stalked and the Bad Guy out that far is not a threat IMO. :cool:

Unless your eyes really suck you should be able to see a man sized target at 1000 yards with a 3x optic. Think about it it's the equivalent of using irons at 333 yards. Hardly a difficult shot outside of the factor of distance and windage.

The 1000 yards criteria was stated by the OP so I can only go by his stated needs. I don't get the impression that he was talking about primarily using it out to that distance only that he wanted the capability. If you live in Western PA you'll never take a 1000 yd shot. Out in the plains or eastern Rockies you very well could.

The BG is a threat if he can hit you at 1000 yds. And you can't hit him.

[ZIG]

First the tables are a great place to start. Second don't have any problems with you at all John and I ain't trying to start any either. Its just I have seen way to many charts, signs, portents, bones, and whiz abang doohickies you can shake a stick at and most of it is just B.S. . When bullets start to go subsonic weird and strange things. True the faster and heavier you are the longer you stay supersonic (you being the bullets here). In my small and limited view has been that the 308 with heavier bullets 168's and up just doesn't have the energy to stay in the supersonic area. This is way the military has been searching for a round that troops can carry enough of that do the job. Now that are troops are working in Afghanistan (well working more there anyway). Thats one of the reasons that all of these newer and heavier rounds are showing up now. However the trade off ain't that great while the .338 Lapua, 300 win. Mag, 408,416, and on and on great at long range and hell on the shooter. Sorry got alittle sidetracked anyway my whole point was low recoil, low price, long barrel life, and lighter weight. Hey I might be a big guy but I don't want to carry a truck either. later and pm me with the match out west. Zig:cool:

[Grumpy]

Sorta reminds me of the battle at Adobe Walls...

Seems the Injuns were attacking not knowing the Buffalo hunters were there.:eek: (me thinks bad timing for Injun raid :confused: ).

So, them Injuns moved back around 1,200 yards to get out of range. :cool: Then some Buff hunter knocked a Chief off his horse at that distance!! :eek: End of raid. :cool:

OK, it may of happened (I know Quigly can do it, seen it on the big screen), but that don't mean it happens everyday. A great shot, yeah, but pure damn luck IMO. Same for the sniper shooting that .308 at that range in the sand box. God Bless him, but it was luck IMO.

[GutShot John]

First the tables are a great place to start. Second don't have any problems with you at all John and I ain't trying to start any either. Its just I have seen way to many charts, signs, portents, bones, and whiz abang doohickies you can shake a stick at and most of it is just B.S.

That's just it. It's not a whizzbang dohickie. It's hard data that's been proven again and again. These are charts in active use by snipers in combat. I agree that once a bullet goes trans/subsonic things start to get more unpredictable but like anything it's just a matter of calculating variables. Ballistics is a pretty consistent science and in modern terms we're a lot better at factoring those in. Put in the right numbers and you'll get proper results.

With snipers collecting data on every shot they make and have made over the last 10 years sniping/precision shooting has come a lot further in that time than in the 30 years between the WOT and the end of Vietnam.

I don't think you'll find a single active sniper who currently dismisses the ballistic charts, weather gauges and ballistic computers as B.S which is why you get 3/4 mile shots and longer much more frequently than Hathcock could have ever imagined.

Honestly the shooting aspect of being a sniper is the easy part. Pretty much anyone can learn to be a proficient shooter at extended ranges with technique, time and practice. The much harder part is the field-craft, target acquisition and more mundane aspects that require real skill and excellent eyes.

I'd even go farther and say that it requires far more skill to shoot a pistol at 100 yards then a .308 at 1000.

[ZIG]

OK, John this is a case of two guys not sitting in front of each other talking. Misscommucation and mostly on my part. The charts and whizzbang stuff is mostly from manufactors and not shooters charts. Two different animals and you are right in that (shooters records) are more accurate in that the information they have is from detail/direct observation and not projections. Once again my bad.Zig:o

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

I'm not a long distance shooter but I play one on T.V. :D

Seriously, I don't know how accurate the ballistic data is today. :confused: But in times past I do know the ammunition makers used "TEST" barrels for pistols that were not the same twist, length, chamber, etc. as what the average Joe Shooter was using, hence we got different results. :( I can only assume they do the same for rifles.

Also, they used some engineers calculations on bullet drag and drop for rifles. Many, many, MANY times I have seen load data that was simply incorrect for both long guns and especially pistols. :(

Temperatures, wind/head wind, humidity, barrel cleanliness, fouling, etc. all effect the down range results. Further, powder, primers, crimp, OAL, brass, bullet, head space, free bore, etc. effect everything. :eek: :(

So, I'll quote my long time Rocket Scientist friend Cliff McClain (who's an avid shooter and Firearms Designer :cool: ):

"There comes a time in every project, where we have to shoot the Engineer and get on with the work...You can do all the calculations you want, but you still have to physically test the theory. And the end results are sometimes not what you expected."

BOTTOM LINE: I don't trust charts. Just shoot it and then you'll know your dope. :cool:

[Ernie Johnson]

How does the earth's rotation affect the path of a bullet?

June 25, 2010
Dear Cecil:

I recently read an article about a Navy SEAL sniper. The author lists possible variables that go into determining a shot, one of which is the rotation of the earth. How exactly does this affect a bullet in flight? Also, for my nonsniper purposes, does it affect my gas mileage?

-- Jason, Sacramento

Cecil replies:

Took a while to get to the bottom of this. But of course we did.

The article I'm guessing you saw, entitled "The Way of the Sniper," appeared in Men's Journal, November 30, 2009. Written by Rick Telander, it tells the story of navy sniper Scott Tyler. Telander writes:

"Each rifle a sniper uses has unique characteristics that are compounded by the ammunition and many, many exterior factors. There is wind. There is humidity. There is the spin of the Earth. There is even the fact that as a rifle is fired, its barrel heats up, the metal contracts, and the bullets are propelled faster."

Reading this, your columnist didn't doubt the rotation of the earth affects a bullet in flight. That's because of the Coriolis effect, discussed here in the past: any object moving horizontally on or near the earth's surface is deflected slightly off course due to the spinning of the planet beneath it. The Coriolis effect has a big effect on phenomena like hurricanes and other weather systems, a small effect on small objects. But if the small object is a precisely aimed rifle bullet, and that bullet travels far enough, it's not something you can completely ignore.

The question in my mind was: how, if at all, did a shooter account for the Coriolis effect when aiming? Your wind, your humidity, and for that matter your temperature and barometric pressure -- these are all dynamic conditions that, to varying degrees, a marksman will want to factor into each shot. However, it's hard to imagine a sniper on the field of battle drawing a bead and thinking: Damn, I better get the latest data on the rotation of the earth.

Una agreed this was unlikely and began inquiring about what shooters actually did. She couldn't reach Telander or a military sniper but did talk things over with a couple of hard-core target shooters at her local rifle range and online. Based on that plus her own calculations she determined as follows:

1. Range is obviously critical. At 100 yards, typical of what a police sharpshooter might encounter, most environmental factors, including the Coriolis effect, are negligible. But military snipers generally are much farther away, typically 400 yards and up -- the current world record for a confirmed kill in combat is 2,430 meters, or roughly 1.5 miles.

2. At 1,000 yards the Coriolis deflection is small but not necessarily trivial. Una computed that at the latitude of Sacramento, a bullet traveling 1,000 yards would be deflected about three inches to the right. In addition, you'd have to aim higher or lower depending on the degree to which you were facing east or west. If you were firing due east, you'd have to aim six inches lower, since the earth rotates from west to east and your target would have dropped away from you slightly by the time the bullet arrived. If you were firing due west, you'd have to aim six inches higher.

3. Amateur long-range shooters can improve their aim using laser rangefinders and scopes with bullet-drop compensators; they'll also consult "cheat sheets" of bullet and rifle performance and their own log of prior results, called a DOPE ("data on personal equipment") book. Military snipers may not always have access to such stuff in combat. But let's take it as given that, one way or another, you can adjust for obvious environmental factors in the field -- no doubt the best shooters do it instinctively.

4. Horizontal deflection caused by the Coriolis effect is more esoteric but in theory easy to adjust for, since it's a function of your distance from the equator. When possible, any shooter, whether professional or amateur, makes a few test shots on arriving at a new location and tweaks his or her sights accordingly. Mostly this is to correct for maladjustments due to jostling in transit and such, but it also compensates for the Coriolis effect.

5. As we've seen, vertical deflection depends on, and can vary considerably according to, what direction you're shooting. Nonetheless, none of the amateur shooters we heard from worried much about it, and my guess is military snipers don't either. More important things can go wrong, and besides, assuming your target is standing, what's a couple inches up or down?

Turning now to your wimpy civilian concerns, don't sweat the Coriolis effect on your gas mileage. In Sacramento, the rotation of the earth causes your car to drift about 16 feet to the right per mile. That may be an issue if you're barreling down a narrow two-lane, but correcting for it costs you less than a hundredth of a mile per gallon.

-- Cecil Adams

[GutShot John]

FWIW I was shooting at a ranch in Wyoming this past week with available shooting lanes of more than a mile.

Using a base model 700 SPS and Hornady TAP Barrier (165 gr./Ballistic Tip) .308 ammo I was able to consistently (90%+ if I did my part) get hits on 12x12" steel between 1000-1100 yards.

Doing the same thing with 7.62 M118 (168 gr./BTFMJ), it was significantly harder (50%).

We didn't get time to chrono it but it was apparent that the .308 was significantly faster than 7.62.

I'm not even a great precision shooter and I didn't have a high-end rifle but 1000 yards is certainly possible and well within the reach of any dedicated shooter.