Martial Artist vs. Gamesmen

[K.W. Peters]

Martial Artist or Gamesmen?

Which do you consider yourself to be, DR? :confused:

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Martial Artist or Gamesmen?

Which do you consider yourself to be, DR? :confused:

My name tag from the 2000 IDPA Nationals says this:

D.R. Middlebrooks - Tactical Gamer :D

I'll post a picture of it later...

[Bob Richardson]

Seriously, DR, which are you? You keep touting all you and your Fist-Fire competition wins, yet you act like a martial artist??:confused:

[GutShot John]

Seriously, DR, which are you? You keep touting all you and your Fist-Fire competition wins, yet you act like a martial artist??:confused:

What's the difference and why does it have to be one or the other? Such labels are invariably meaningless which is probably why D.R. gave the cheeky response he did. The question reveals more about the questioner than it does the questionee.

Do you consider UFC guys, boxers, or wrestlers to be "martial artists" or "gamesmen"?

They fight for competition, does that mean they'd be any less lethal in a street fight?

What difference does it make?

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

For the record:

I started out shooting Bullsye, then PPC, then Bowling pins. I did it to improve my shooting skills. :cool: I then started shooting Combat Pistol matches back in the late 1970's when I was in police work.

In 1980 I attended my 1st IPSC Nationals and I was hooked. In 1981, I was in the Top 10 overall. Here's a pic of the "Man vs. Man" Shoot Off Finals:

http://tacticalshooting.com/images/1981nats.jpg

The guy in upper left with the white shirt was Ross Seyfried, IPSC National & World Champion (my hero) and the LAST man to win High Overall using a 1911 .45 which was his carry gun using a carry holster! :eek: . Recognize any of the other guys? ;) I'm the guy in the white hat! :cool:

In Virgina, I think I was the LAST guy to away from the .45 ACP. I was the LAST guy to go to a recoil compensator and the LAST guy to use a Red Dot optic.

I also bowed out of IPSC in the early 90's after writing a letter to USPSA asking them to separate the Carry Guns from the Race Guns, as I felt they were getting away from the founding principles of the sport (yes, it is a game :rolleyes:).

I then got involved in "Man vs. Man" Speed Steel and later IDPA.

Gotta run right now, more to follow later...

[ZIG]

Gamer nothing but, if you are shooting in either a local or a big event. Its still just a game, You ain't a hunter if you ain't hunting. Doesn't mean it can't be a training tool and its not fun. The only time its not is when either something is hunting you or you are hunting something.:cool:

[SLIDE LOCK]

I don't see how anybody can look at the FIST-FIRE Book or the FIST-FIRE DVD's and NOT realize what a Martial Artist DR is... :mad:

[Kevin Walsh]

What's the difference and why does it have to be one or the other? Such labels are invariably meaningless which is probably why D.R. gave the cheeky response he did. The question reveals more about the questioner than it does the questionee.

Do you consider UFC guys, boxers, or wrestlers to be "martial artists" or "gamesmen"?

They fight for competition, does that mean they'd be any less lethal in a street fight?

What difference does it make?

Play shooting is not fighting with handguns. :rolleyes: The UFC is NOT a real fight either, it's a game. Any good street fighter who would fight dirty would probably win. :eek:

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Play shooting is not fighting with handguns....

Oh, OK. So how do you train for the REAL world? Go around getting in gunfights or what? :confused:

The UFC is NOT a real fight either, it's a game. Any good street fighter who would fight dirty would probably win. :eek:Are you on crack or what? :confused: Here's a quote from one of the World's Greatest Martial Artists who was also a play fighter in No Holds Barred competition:

"If you bite me, I break your arm. If you eye gouge me, I take your arm home with me." - Rickson Gracie

www.Rickson.com (http://www.Rickson.com)

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Seriously, DR, which are you? You keep touting all you and your Fist-Fire competition wins, yet you act like a martial artist??:confused:

I wrote the book on shooting & fighting with handguns. I created FIST-FIRE: THE Martial Art of Handgunning. I took it into the realm of World Class competition and competed with my carry gun and concealment holster of my own design and won against younger, faster, factory sponsored pro shooters. :cool:

What have you ever done or won? :confused: I mean, besides making up Tactical Excuses for your piss poor shooting performance?? :o I'll tell you like I told some guys at the matches. The "Old School" gunfighter guru types kept telling me, "The Targets don't shoot back!" to which I answered:

"OK, the targets don't shoot back...So, why can't you hit them? " :rolleyes: :o

I swear, if you guys would spend half as much time DRY FIRING as you do BITCHING about the guys who win, you'd all be Master Class shooters! :rolleyes:

[GutShot John]

Play shooting is not fighting with handguns. :rolleyes: The UFC is NOT a real fight either, it's a game. Any good street fighter who would fight dirty would probably win. :eek:

Wow...that's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Do you train/practice with people shooting live rounds at you? No? Why not? Because it's not an efficient way to learn/practice without getting killed. As Bob said it's all a game until you do it for real.

Tell you what, go test your hypothesis. Go to California and visit Frank Shamrock's gym, while there go kick him in the nuts and let us know how it turns out for you...assuming you're not a vegetable afterwards. :rolleyes:

Seriously have you guys taken a class from D.R? Have you seen his videos or read his book? No? So basically you don't know wtf you're talking about. I know people talking out of their ass on the interwebs...crazy right? :eek:

[Billy Barnes]

I think we need to define our terms:

What is a GAMER?

What is a MARTIAL ARTIST?

And while we're at it...

What is TACTICAL SHOOTING?

Thoughts?

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

I think we need to define our terms:

What is a GAMER?

It depends on who you ask. In OLD SCHOOL speak a "GAMER = CHEATER" :confused:

What is a MARTIAL ARTIST? Again, it depends on who you ask. I know there are many NSP's out there who fancy themselves "Martial Artists" because they can't shoot worth a shit, and loathe those who do shoot well (the comp shooters). Go figure... :rolleyes:

But the REAL definition of MARTIAL ARTS = WAR ARTS :cool:

What is TACTICAL SHOOTING?My dictionary defines TACTICS as "any maneuvers used to gain advantage or or success"... :cool:

Now, shooting is well, shooting. But TACTICAL SHOOTING by my definition incorporates movement, positioning, speed and accuracy which are all TECHNIQUES that will help you gain advantage or success. :cool:

[GutShot John]

I like the dicitonary definitions

From Merriam Webster:

Main Entry: games·man
Pronunciation: \ˈgāmz-mən, -ˌman\
Function: noun
Date: 1947
: one who practices gamesmanship; also : one who plays games or sport


Main Entry: martial art
Function: noun
Date: 1928
: any of several arts of combat and self defense (as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport
— martial artist noun

Main Entry: tac·tics
Pronunciation: \ˈtak-tiks\
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction
Etymology: New Latin tactica, plural, from Greek taktika, from neuter plural of taktikos of order, of tactics, fit for arranging, from tassein to arrange, place in battle formation
Date: 1626
1 a : the science and art of disposing and maneuvering forces in combat b : the art or skill of employing available means to accomplish an end
2 : a system or mode of procedure

Martial Artists are BY DEFINITION gamesmen. Like I said before. What's the difference?

"Gamer" on the other hand has a perjorative as D.R. said. Usually given by those that just had their ass handed to them.

[Al Bowman]

Martial Artists are BY DEFINITION gamesmen. Like I said before. What's the difference?

Not all competitive shooters are interested in self defense. Brian Enos (www.brianenos.com) for one, really loathes the tactical types. And I've talked to a few IPSC/USPSA guys who don't even carry. :eek:

On the other hand, I know guys who do carry and loathe competition shooters. :confused: (I'm still confused over this one). So, the question is, does one have to be a competitor to be a martial artist? :confused:

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

So, the question is, does one have to be a competitor to be a martial artist? :confused:

No, but it helps. You have to test and measure your skill set. You have to keep score. You can't measure YOUR improvement (notice I said YOUR improvement) without a good scoring system, a good target, a good test (CoF) and timer. :cool:

And what better place to test your skills (shooting against yourself) than at a tactical pistol match? It's a bargain price for what you are getting and hey, it's all set up for you, just shoot it! :)

[Al Bowman]

Martial Artists are BY DEFINITION gamesmen. Like I said before. What's the difference?


There are lot's of Karate guys who never compete. Does this mean they are not martial artists?

[Al Bowman]

You can't measure YOUR improvement (notice I said YOUR improvement) without a good scoring system, a good target, a good test (CoF) and timer. :cool:

What's a "CoF" :confused: Sorry, I'm a bit new at this. :o

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

What's a "CoF" :confused: Sorry, I'm a bit new at this. :o

Look it up...;)

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/showthread.php?p=1323#post1323

[GutShot John]

There are lot's of Karate guys who never compete. Does this mean they are not martial artists?

Are they really kicking each others' asses for real? or for practice?

If it's not for real...it's a game. How else do you learn and improve without getting killed?

It's all competition whether it's for titles or not. Just because they have no interest in actually killing anyone, doesn't make them any less lethal.

It just makes them smart.

Not that you did but what kind of fool denigrates that? This isn't about being a "human weapon" this is about using your brain and the smart play is walking away if you can but being prepared if you can't.

[SLIDE LOCK]

Our fighter pilots don't wait until a REAL dogfight comes their way to test. They train in flight simulators, they fly mock missions with mock dog fights all the time. The Air Force has RED FLAG which is game, too. A very tough game where only those with highest skills get to test for Top Gun honors. It's the closest thing you can get to a REAL dogfight. :cool:

[Fast Eddy]

Anyone who is serious about self defense should train to fight, and fight like they train. I know D.R. and his instructors have shot alot of SIMS over the years in FoF scenarios. THAT is about as close as you get to the real thing. But I like what D.R. said a few years back to Jeff Gonzales on Glock Talk:

"One doesn't become a Master Swordsman by going around and getting into sword fights. You study the art, and train under Master Swordsmen."

Same holds true for becoming a Master shooter. Train under a Master or Grandmaster like D.R. You'll get there quicker :cool:

[Al Lamont]

There's an article in the new Dillion Blue Press by Duane Thomas on this very subject.:cool:

[SLIDE LOCK]

Yep, good article. Did you notice his shooting stance? That's a MOD - ISO - WEAVER presentation. Right D.R.?

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Exactly!! Very good Brough! You DO listen and look! :)

I used shoot just like that back BFF (Before Fist Fire). :cool: