Reverse Harries Flashlight Technique

[Clavin Browne]

I was at a IDPA match and I heard the guys talking about the Fist-Fire "REVERSE" Harries Flashlight Technique. They said it doesn't work and one guy broke his watch using it!! :eek: :confused:

Anyone had this happen or know of a failure of the method?

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

http://tacticalshooting.com/images/kevin.jpg
The Reverse Harries demonstrated by FIST-FIRE
Instructor Kevin Apland

Saying the "Reverse Harries" doesn't work in IDPA is like saying a "Rear Naked Choke" doesn't work in MMA...:rolleyes:

They just don't know how to use it correctly, that's all...:cool:

[GutShot John]

Anyone had this happen or know of a failure of the method?

Nope.

I had actually heard this claim from another instructor but he only said it "might" happen, never that it did.

When I asked D.R. he pointed out that a recoiling slide moves about three inches linear distance. Assuming your support hand isn't sitting right on the wrist how is it even possible?

There are a lot of boneheaded flashlight techniques out there, my personal favorite is to hold the light by the side of your head. :eek: Guess where the incoming fire is going to go.

[Joe Ford]

If you get the light hand too close to the gun you can either get wacked or cause a gun failure when the slide hits the weak hand. In actual match and I assume real use there are so many variables involved there really isnt any one way to hold a light. Any of them are better than having it attached to your gun, In the few matches I have shot in dark or near dark I have started with the FF method but depending on the stage I may or may not finish that way. Just depends on the angles, movement and cover.

[Mike Wood]

I've been using the Roger's technique with good results for some time now and so have many of our top shooters at NCRR. Any time you can get both hands on the gun with a light you're way ahead of the game. It takes practice to find the correct way to hold the light so as not to not eject the mag etc. but once you do it flies and you will have no problems. There is really no comparison in speed IMO. You're shooting 2 handed vs strong-hand only.
Dave Sevigny uses the Roger's Technique, I'm sure he's tried everything before he settled on this method.;)
MW

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

ROGERS METHOD & Variations...

I've been testing flashlight techniques for decades now. I've won LOT'S of stages on the low light and no light courses over the years shooting against the BEST shooters out there using my proven FIST-FIRE® Methods. :cool:

I used the Rogers method for a while back in the 80's, but I found out (through competition testing and FoF testing with SIMS & Air Soft) that there was a potential problem for failure. :(

Been there, seen it fail, won’t teach it…

NOR will I teach the short trigger reset method for Glocks, for that matter. The LAST thing I want to do is get someone killed over a "GAMMER" technique. And that's what I consider these two methods to be, GAMMER tricks.:( For example:

I was the S&W Academy Match shooting the "Low Light & No Light Courses". I was standing there talking to a Sure Fire rep about the Rogers and variations of it. Someone asked me, "Why don't you like it?" And just then the shooter on the line started shooting, and sure-fire enough, we heard "BANG! KLUNK-CLICK!" :eek: The mag fell out of the gun and the gun went CLICK instead of BANG!! I turned and said, "That's why…" :cool:

The Rogers method puts the light too near the magazine release button. During recoil (or if you get a bad grip) the mag button can get bumped...


Again, I've seen it FAIL in matches and in FoF with SIMS and Airsoft, too. I've seen guys bang into barricades, walls, counter tops, etc. and launch the mag. I've seen it in BIG matches and in Tactical training classes as well.

This is where the "K.I.S.S.O.F.F." principle comes into play:

KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID OR FACE FAILURE!!! :eek:

Further, it's too slow to get into action comparatively. My methods are flat out FAST and they WORK. :cool:

TRAIN LIKE YOU FIGHT AND FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAIN...

Further, it's too slow to get into action compared the the Reverse Harries. My methods are FAST and they WORK. :cool:

More info to follow...

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

http://tacticalshooting.com/images/apland.jpg
FIST-FIRE® REVERSE HARRIES Technique

DISCLAIMER: Unless you've been coached in the Reverse Harries (RH) and other FIST-FIRE® flashlight methods (which are really quite simple) you may not be able to execute them properly.

The key to this method is the wrists. You shouldn't have the wrist bone groups touching ONE ON TOP OF THE OTHER. Although it should (and will) work with the "wrist -on-top-of-wrist" the OFF HAND wrist should be BEHIND the STRONG HAND WRIST, ideally on the forearm bone, right at or behind the knuckle/joint.


http://tacticalshooting.com/images/kevin.jpg


They way to do it is simple: Stay behind the STRONG HAND WRIST and LOCK the OFF HAND onto the forearm knuckle bone. It's really quite simple once you get the hang of it.

ADVANTAGES of the Reverse Harries Technique are as follows:

SPEED: It's FAST to get into.

FRONT SIGHT ILLUMINATION: It illuminates the front sight quite well.

FLUID MOVEMENT: You can move in and out of this position easily.

RECOIL CONTROL: Recoil control with the RH is superior to that of the Harries. Why? The gun recoils UP so the off hand should be pushing DOWN onto the end of the forearm bone.

ENTRAPMENT: You CANNOT get trapped with the RH like you can with the Harries. :eek:

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

When I asked D.R. he pointed out that a recoiling slide moves about three inches linear distance. Assuming your support hand isn't sitting right on the wrist how is it even possible?

Actually, the slide moves about half that distance, about 1.5"...

But even with the hands "wrist-on-wrist" the slide should clear. I've got large hands and I'm OK. But with a watch could catch it that close, that's why we teach to hold it behind the wrists and lock down on the forearm bone knuckle, like in the picture below::cool:

http://tacticalshooting.com/images/kevin.jpg


There are a lot of boneheaded flashlight techniques out there, my personal favorite is to hold the light by the side of your head. :eek: Guess where the incoming fire is going to go.

No, not necessarily... ;)

Keep in mind that the Fist-Fire Flashlight Shooting Methods are just that:

SHOOTING METHODS or shooting positions!! :eek:

I don't go around with my light on ALL the time. But when I do flash it, I'm ready to shoot. I'm indexed and ready to fire. And ACTION beats REACTION every time. :cool:

I roll in-and-out of shooting positions all the time. I like to be fluid and float back and forth, in and out of different levels of weapons presentations and flash light shooting positions.

And YES, I do hold the flash light near my head sometimes. :eek: But this is usually for solo work, usually indoors for room & house clearing, not out on the battle field somewhere.

Also, if they're gonna shoot at the light, then why have a weapons mounted light? :eek:

[J. Mathews]

What about recoil control with compared to the Rogers? Both hands on the gun seems it would be better, right? :confused:

[GutShot John]

And YES, I do hold the flash light near my head sometimes. :eek: But this is usually for solo work, usually indoors for room & house clearing, not out on the battle field somewhere.

D'oh I should have been less dogmatic. I completely agree that action beats reaction.

To clarify I was given a pretty dramatic demonstration of this at a night-fighter class I took but it dealt with out of doors. Indoors my observation is less relevant since the threat is invariably going to be in front of you (down the hall etc). Outdoors a threat can appear anywhere and while you're engaging the BG in front of you, his buddy (that you don't see) might be flanking you or approaching from the rear.

Essentially by holding it by the head you're silhouetting your head for 360 degrees. Front, back and sides if they shoot at the light they're essentially shooting at your head.

Also, if they're gonna shoot at the light, then why have a weapons mounted light? :eek:

Actually the instructor addressed that, yes with a weapon mounted light they are shooting at the light but the light isn't close to a vital zone except from from the frontal angle. From the sides you're shooting at the weapon/hands. From the rear your body obscures most of the light presenting a less obvious target.

I hope that makes sense. There may be certainly times when holding the light by your head is preferable, but people need to be aware of the down side.

[Mike Wood]

Perhaps I should have clarified this from the onset but I consider the Roger's Technique to be strictly a "competition technique" for winning matches.:o Yes I know, we should only use tactically correct techniques but if I were to use what I consider to be the most tactically correct method I'd be going through the stages so slow I'd never place in a low light match- this is one of the problems with competition- the clock itself. And IMO a good example of how some of you guys that have accused D.R. of teaching "competition only" techniques are wrong.
Guys like D.R. can still win matches when using more tactically sound methods, and he can teach you how too; so sue me for occasionally being a gamer.;) Most of my competition has been shot with my actual carry gear from an IWB holster so allow me this one back slip. I still think the Rogers is faster- but not necessarily safer and I have a lot of great shooters that agree with me on the faster part- and I've never accidentally ejected a mag yet either, not to say that it can't happen because like D.R., I have seen it done. Like any method it takes practice and it may not be for everybody. I'd like now to switch to the subject of real-life room clearing.

A few years back I had to opportunity to participate in a NO-light FoF test with Andy and Daniel Horner and several of us at our club (NCRR). Some time before this, these 2 outstanding shooters had been invited to a course from Surefire that completely flew in the face of most flashlight techniques out there. They told us that after they took this course it altered the way they might use the flashlight in a real life situation and enlightened them to how completely dangerous and retarded it is to go room to room looking for BG's with a flashlight- period.

We set up "rooms" and used 1911 guns (airsoft) that shone a laser beam when you pulled the trigger. We all got to try both sides of the game where one would lay in wait while the other came looking. Now for those of you that do not know Andy & Daniel they're both TSA grads that use D.R.'s FistFire methods with great success. Daniel is now truly one of the best shooters in the world currently and is a key member of the AMU's team of star shooters, kicks ass all over the place and can be seen on TV pretty regular and he has sponsorship from anyone he wants. I just wanted you to know who we're talking about here- it clarifies my point. Oh yeah, they also use D.R's FF flashlight technique in competition and it's common knowledge how well they do with it. They did alter it a bit for this demonstration though.

At the Surefire course they learned to use the flashlight in a very different way. Instead of just flashing the light in quick flashes when you're indexed and ready to shoot just like you mentioned D.R. they held it high & out and moved in elliptical motions separate from the gun- shooting strong hand only and you go by memory- what did I just see? shoot (or not) and MOVE NOW! D.R. did mention moving quickly and smoothly in & out of shooting positions indexed and ready to go- this is VERY important. From the BG point of view the elliptical flashlight movements made it more confusing and harder to place the shooter than when we did it with static flashes.

The enlightening thing was that even at the extreme skill level of these 2 shooters they both got popped several times (albeit, less than us, but shot just the same) while looking through the "house" when someone was laying in wait, yes we were all good shooters but not anywhere near the level of Daniel who has afterburners on him.:eek: Sometimes they got the BG but it was clear (and Andy told us this up front) that it is JUST NOT A GOOD IDEA to go looking for someone in your house with a flashlight unless you absolutely have to.

I determined that just like the K-9 corps this is what DOGS are for- and the reason I have a Rottweiler at my house. We all got shot when doing this even though the methods used were probably as effective as they could possibly be, they are still not good enough.
MW

[Joe Ford]

Reverse Harris also leaves you with a fairly accessible impact weapon al ready cocked for a back hand. Personally I feel weapon mounted lights dont belong on defensive weapons, nor should most LEO be allowed to use them. WML's are great aiming aids but they will always end up being used as flashlights,

[GutShot John]

Personally I feel weapon mounted lights dont belong on defensive weapons, nor should most LEO be allowed to use them. WML's are great aiming aids but they will always end up being used as flashlights,

Joe I respectfully disagree about WMLs. They are a tool in the box. If you're talking about the lowest common denominator (ie someone who is a relative novice with little training) I see where your coming from but a defensive situation presumes you've been engaged. This is not to say that a WML should be your primary illumination only that when you've gone to guns it is an excellent option.

People have been using WMLs for a long time with excellent effect.

Just don't use it as a flashlight. Use a WML to shoot and have another light for general purpose. This gives you options like launching your pocket light into a room a la DR.

Once you've made the decision to go to guns a WML allows you a better grip and accordingly better accuracy.

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Good post, Mike! :cool: I agree, send the DOGS in, and shoot the rabbits when they come out! :D

I also see Joe's point about WML. The problem is to use the ligth you've gotta point the muzzle at someone. :eek:

And I agree with John, for the novice, a weapons mounted light is the most effective way to shoot. :cool:

I've done some house clearings in my day responding to burglar alarms (some false alarms, some not). Everything from NEW expensive homes, to mobile homes. Probably investigated a hundred or so, most were at night. And one thing I noticed is there is plenty of light in most homes coming in from street lights through windows and curtains. Very few were what I would call NO LIGHT scenarios.

But as in all things FIST-FIRE, it's all about Options, Options, Options. Having the rail on the gun is just another one of those options. Use it or not, it's an option. :cool:

[J. Mathews]

Hummn...I think I would like the light on my gun at night. Keeping it on the night sand by the bed I can see the tritium sights glowing and with the light attached, I'm ready to go-2-guns if need be.:cool:

[Joe Ford]

yep and you'll be ready to point your gun right at your wife's head, or your sick kid,
Sitting at a roadblock style traffic screening I watched a so called trained LEO point a presumed loaded AR at a kid in a car seat because thats where his flashlight was attached. And of course good luck ever prosecuting him for assault with a deadly weapon. If you stick a flashlight on a gun YOU WILL USE THAT AS A LIGHT ! no matter how many times we say we shouldnt, thus violating the A number one rule of fire arms.

[GutShot John]

yep and you'll be ready to point your gun right at your wife's head, or your sick kid,

You can't treat every gun owner like an idiot or like your average lowest-common-denominator police trainee. We all spend a lot of time and money on the range to train and prepare for situations like this. If I perceive a threat and I have my gun out with a light and the light reveals a kid, I pull the gun away. If I don't have a light on the gun and I can't see the kid I'm pointing my gun at how is that any safer?

Hard-and-fast rules don't really work in the real world.

Sitting at a roadblock style traffic screening I watched a so called trained LEO point a presumed loaded AR at a kid in a car seat because thats where his flashlight was attached. And of course good luck ever prosecuting him for assault with a deadly weapon. If you stick a flashlight on a gun YOU WILL USE THAT AS A LIGHT ! no matter how many times we say we shouldnt, thus violating the A number one rule of fire arms.

So you're going to hold an AR with one hand while using your flashlight with another? Since a carbine isn't a weapon you can effectively use with one hand what sense does that make? None. If you're using a carbine as your primary weapon it better have a weapon mounted light on it.

Even still that's a training issue. Why would the LEO in question have his AR out and pointed during a routine traffic stop? If he perceived a threat why wouldn't he want to see what he might be shooting at?

Don't use your weapon light as routine illumination. If you've pulled your gun it's because you've got a threat. If there is no threat you lower it. One way or the other being able to see what you're pointing your gun at isn't the end of the world.

No downside, lots of upsides....with proper training.

IIRC "Rule A" is treat every gun as if it were loaded. I don't see where that was violated in your scenario. At worst he violated rule B which is don't point your gun at anything you're not willing to destroy.

Big boy rules. People get swept all the time. That doesn't mean you should do it casually or without a good reason but cops point their guns at people ALL THE TIME they don't end up shooting. Do they violate that rule every time?

I'm sorry Joe but hard-and-fast rules like that are maybe necessary on a square range but it doesn't work like that in the real world.

[Mike Wood]

yep and you'll be ready to point your gun right at your wife's head, or your sick kid,
Sitting at a roadblock style traffic screening I watched a so called trained LEO point a presumed loaded AR at a kid in a car seat because thats where his flashlight was attached. And of course good luck ever prosecuting him for assault with a deadly weapon. If you stick a flashlight on a gun YOU WILL USE THAT AS A LIGHT ! no matter how many times we say we shouldnt, thus violating the A number one rule of fire arms.

Just like using your scope for binoculars when hunting, I wonder what that is over there, whoops it's another hunter. I've heard of this happening as well. Good people do dumb things sometimes without thinking.:eek:
MW

[GutShot John]

I think we can all agree that there is a bit of a difference between hunting which is sport and facing a life threat. Different rules should and do apply.

That said as a hunter I think there is a fair comparison to be made. There is no excuse for being lazy or complacent with a firearm in your hand. You don't use your WML for primary/routine illumination anymore than you use a riflescope for primary/routine observation (outside of Fallujah). You carry binoculars just as you carry a flashlight.

If one can't be trusted to think with a gun in their hand then maybe one shouldn't have a gun in one's hand. These are "big boy rules."

[Ernie Johnson]

If someone comes in my house at night rest assured THEY WILL GET COVERED BY A MUZZLE! :eek: