Competition vs. Combat

[Frank Wilson]

We had a thread going on this subject here a while back, did it get lost in the hack? :confused:

We need to start it over as it was just getting good. I'll go first. ;)

Competition ain't the same as combat, period. Mainly 'cause the targets don't shoot back. :cool:

I got my popcorn, I'm ready! :D

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

I'll tell you like I told a guy at the World "Man vs. Man" Shoot Off Championships match:

"OK, the targets don't shoot back...so why can't you hit them?" :p

Seriously, most "Gun Schools" place the emphasis on "Mindset & Tactics" with very little emphasis on "Technique". :cool:

But I have a TACTICAL SHOOTING SCHOOL and therefore I teach TACTICAL SHOOTING. We are performance oriented. This means we need to hit the intended target...

[Joe Ford]

Basketball isnt the same as baseball, and apples arnt the same as oranges so what's your point?

[D. Goodman]

I'll tell you like I told a guy at the World "Man vs. Man" Shoot Off Championships match:

"OK, the targets don't shoot back...so why can't you hit them?" :p

Seriously, most "Gun Schools" place the emphasis on "Mindset & Tactics" with very little emphasis on "Technique". :cool:

But I have a TACTICAL SHOOTING SCHOOL and therefore I teach TACTICAL SHOOTING. We are performance oriented. This means we need to hit the intended target...

OK, so how does one hit the "intended target" then??? :confused:

I'm no expert, I'm a newbie simply interested in self defense with a handgun. That said, if shooting is like ANY other sport, I think it's got a lot to do with this thing called, "TECHNIQUE" that DR always talks about...but I could be wrong... ;)

[Fast Eddy]

OK, so how does one hit the "intended target" then??? :confused:

I'm no expert, I'm a newbie simply interested in self defense with a handgun. That said, if shooting is like ANY other sport, I think it's got a lot to do with this thing called, "TECHNIQUE" that DR always talks about...but I could be wrong... ;)

EXACTLY!!! :cool:

I struggled for years before I started studying FIST-FIRE. I thought the old adage "FRONT SIGHT...PRESS!" was a no brainer and easy to understand (and it does work to some extent for those of us who are lazy :o), but I wanted more. I wanted better down range results. After studying under DR I began to realize how vitally important technique really is. :cool:

[Bobby Lewis]

Seems to be a lot of focus and heavy emphasis placed on "technique" on this board. Much different than other places I've been visiting. What about mindset & tactics? Aren't they important, too? :confused:

[SLIDE LOCK]

Yes, of course they are important...but mindset & tactics don't guarantee good hits. :( But good shooting technique does. :cool:

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Well said, Brough! :cool:

[Joe Ford]

Tactics and mindset are generally preached by people who cant shoot to people who are too lazy to learn to shoot.

[Frank Wilson]

Even Rob Pincus says there is too much emphasis placed on competition only techniques. :rolleyes: DR, what have your students done with your system in the REAL WORLD as opposed to the land of make beleive? :p

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Even Rob Pincus says there is too much emphasis placed on competition only techniques...

What "competition only techniques" are you talking about? :confused:

DR, what have your students done with your system in the REAL WORLD as opposed to the land of make beleive? :p

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

"I don't measure my students by their KILLS, I measure them by their skills."

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

The Parable of the Bad Golfer

There once was golfer who was having trouble with his game. He sought help from a guy who was a good golfer at his local club. The guy told him, "The reason you don’t play well, is because you don’t play enough. Go to the driving range every day and hit a bucket of balls. Eventually, you’ll get better."

So, the golfer went out faithfully everyday at lunch to the driving range and hit a bucket of balls. Eventually, he began to make some improvement. But he soon reached a plateau where he just couldn’t make any more gains.

The local guy told him he needed to hit the ball faster. He tried, but this just made his game even worse. "This could take years!", he said. "I want improvement right now. What should I do?"

Then someone suggested he ask the advice of another golfer who was winning on the Pro circuit, and he did. That Pro told him, "Your grip is wrong, your stance is wrong and your swing is all wrong. You need to change those things and work on technique."


The stubborn Golfer then said, "But I like the way I hold the club, I like the way I stand and I like the way I swing. It feels comfortable to me. I don’t want to change any of that. Just tell me what I should do to improve!" The Pro suggested he try another school and he did.

Even though the so called "Pro" at the new school had never won any major tournaments, he had written a book and made some video’s about subject. The Pro told him, "Your game is fine...you are probably good enough to beat the average, every day guy on the street right now. Just work on Mindset and Strategy. Just keep telling yourself how good you are and what great strategies you have, and you’ll be fine."

"Will that help my slice?" the golfer asked.

"No, but it will make you feel better about yourself."

[Frank Wilson]

I think I'd rather take a class from someone who has BTDT rather than some IPSC comp shooter, DR. :cool:

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

I think I'd rather take a class from someone who has BTDT rather than some IPSC comp shooter, DR. :cool:

I've got a lot guys in my camp who have "GONE and DONE" and lot's of students who have "Seen the Elephant" too. :cool:

But why they want to come and train with me blows my mind...:confused:

Unless, maybe they want to learn to shoot better? Just a thought...;)

[Frank Hill]

Some say gun games like IPSC can get you killed in a gunfight. Things like standing in the fatal funnel, reloading out in the open, etc. :(

Can anything good come out of competition? :confused:

Some say match results are dependent upon the individuals natural ability and don't test or prove anything. Thoughts? :confused:

Respectfully,

Franky

[GutShot John]

Some say gun games like IPSC can get you killed in a gunfight. Things like standing in the fatal funnel, reloading out in the open, etc. :(

Can anything good come out of competition? :confused:

Some say match results are dependent upon the individuals natural ability and don't test or prove anything. Thoughts? :confused:

Respectfully,

Franky

Have you actually read anything that has been said to you over the course of the thread? You've certainly not understood it.

Whomever told you that competition will get you killed in a gunfight is a complete fucking retard (someone noteworthy who's name we should know so we never go train with him?) and likely someone who's never done either and certainly not done well in competition. Many many many guys who have BTDT (including two Delta operators whom I've trained with) not only encourage competition, but have plainly stated that they've learned more from competitors than they did during their military training.

When you go practice shooting on the range it doesn't mimic a gunfight either (targets don't shoot back), does that mean that practicing on the range will get you killed? Of course this is absurd. Practice/training is practice/training. Competition is simply practice/training against other shooters. How does that NOT improve the skill set of putting rounds on target as fast as possible?

Respectfully? Given your statements in this thread I don't think that word means what you think it means and honestly I don't understand what your point is and what you're actually doing here.

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Some say gun games like IPSC can get you killed in a gunfight. Things like standing in the fatal funnel, reloading out in the open, etc. :(

I'd agree with some of that to some degree... :cool:

I base it upon my experience (not by assumption) with IPSC types. I've seen some name brand IPSC shooters clear a room in tactical training much like they would in a match... :(

But after they get "lit up" a few times with SIMS and/or smacked around and roughed up a bit the MMA guys, they usually stop...:eek:

Can anything good come out of competition? :confused: How about the car you drive? Or your truck? The suspension, tires, handling and performance are ALL a direct result of competition, up to and including the desert dune buggies the military uses...

Some say match results are dependent upon the individuals natural ability and don't test or prove anything. That's Old School tactical dogma talking. :( At the late age of 45 I began WINNING against younger, faster, factory sponsored National and World Champion shooters. Why? Something called FIST-FIRE :eek: It was something no one had ever seen before. My technique was better, it's that simple... :cool:

[Joe Ford]

anyomne who claims to have BTDT and gets all hot and bothered over handguns is full of it. I'd rather have an extra canteen than a pistol.

[Mike Wood]

I think I'd rather take a class from someone who has BTDT rather than some IPSC comp shooter, DR. :cool:

Frank,
You shouldn't be thinking that just because "Joe combat veteran" has been in a gunfight or 2 that he is somehow going to prevail over any competition shooter in a gunfight- this could be a fatal mistake on his part. The mindset to kill is within most of us if not ALL of us. As far as competition vs. real world tactics I suggest that you you click on the TSA rulebook (DR Middlebrook's preferred competition) and skim though it. Inside you'll find penalties for things like not shooting from behind cover, not keeping your head out of the line of fire while reloading, advancing with an unloaded gun, not shooting while moving, it goes on and on. Most of these are well known and effective tactics. How could getting in the habit of doing these things hurt your survival chances?

I really don't think anyone on this forum advocates violating basic gunfight survival tactics as is done in USPSA (IPSC) at every match. It just happens to be the 1st game out there and most people started out shooting it and many still do. There are more useful competitions that can actually burn good habits into your psyche such as TSA and IDPA.
Instead of just running with so-called expert opinions go out and compete and generate a few of your own. One thing that's undeniable- your skill level will increase which is never a bad thing. I know for a fact there are guys on this forum that have had armed encounters that are still here because of skills learned in competition. The difference between them and some "experts" is they don't go around telling everyone that "you need to listen to me because I've been shot at before!" The number of people that have been "tested in combat" are probably far greater than you might think.

Frank, some of these experts, to put it bluntly are completely FOS. Anyone that thinks they are the only ones that have ever seen real combat and now know it all are both fooling themselves and their students. DR has said openly on this forum that he is always looking for better methods and will always be a student himself. Being in combat does not transcend someone to some unobtainable plateau that we need to worship. Gunfights are ultra-violence with weapons pure and simple and the better you are with your tactics and gun handling skills the better off you'll be at the end of this violence. The same as you'd be at the end of a street fight if you learned skills that make you a better hand to hand fighter.

Anyone that thinks they could go toe to toe with an accomplished MMA fighter (that competes) without training and keeping those skills up by competing or REGULAR training is fooling themselves into a loss. It's the same with gun fighting. If the only training you're getting is competition then by all means...compete. If the only training you're getting is taking an occaisional class and popping rounds off by yourself then God help you because you probably won't be able to.
MW

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

WOW! :eek: Well said, Mike! :cool:

I know a lot of people knock competition. But just ask yourself: Where would we be without it? :confused:

Back in the mid 1970's IPSC marked a MAJOR milestone in the evolution of modern handgun shooting techniques (I know, I was there! ;)). The late Col. Cooper was indeed the Father of Combat Pistolcraft for sure, but he was also VERY dogmatic about his "Modern Technique of the Pistol" which is, was and will always be HARD CORE WEAVER style shooting. :(

Whereas, I on the other hand, truly believe in EVOLVING myself and my System of Shooting. But unless there is TESTING, there will never be evolution. And it's diffcult to determine what works and what doesn't without measurement. But shooting techniques are quite measurable, and FoF is extremely helpful, too. :cool:

So, I look up to and admire many of the Top Shooters today. Anytime I can get my guys to test against shooting greats like Dave Sevigny I'm all excited (YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH I LEARNED AT THE STREET GUN NATIONALS just by watching, measuring the results and keeping score)...:)

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

http://tacticalshooting.com/images/Thornton.jpg

“The argument that something is true within the natural world, or that something works within the natural world; in other words any proposition that makes empirical claims about the nature or reality, is by definition, TESTABLE. It can, theoretically, be proven, or disproven through experiment. This is a key point to remember.” - Matt Thornton, Straight Blast Gym

[Ed Hanson]

Can competitions like IDPA or TSA be considered training? :confused:

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Can competitions like IDPA or TSA be considered training? :confused:

While matches may be ALL the training some people ever get, it's not all they'll ever need. :( I consider matches more of a "TEST" than anything else. :eek:

Studying the art of combat pistolcraft is what classes are all about. Studying the principles behind the techniques help you understand them better. Good shooting demonstrations (like those on the FIST-FIRE DVD's) show you how to execute certain techniques. Good coaching is paramount. Finally, shooting the matches is not only fun, but it's a way that you can actually measure your improvements. :cool:

[Mike Wood]

While matches may be ALL the training some people ever get, it's not all they'll ever need. :( I consider matches more of a "TEST" than anything else. :eek:

Studying the art of combat pistolcraft is what classes are all about. Studying the principles behind the techniques help you understand them better. Good shooting demonstrations (like those on the FIST-FIRE DVD's) show you how to execute certain techniques. Good coaching is paramount. Finally, shooting the matches is not only fun, but it's a way that you can actually measure your improvements. :cool:

And while measuring them (checking your progress) you're also keeping them honed and ready. These skills will diminish with non-use. You can't very well go out and get in a gunfight 2 or 3 times a month, but you can train and you can shoot in a simulated one that often. And like D.R. said they're FUN!
MW

[Ed Hanson]

That makes sense, as does much of what I see and hear on these forums. I can no longer believe everything I see and hear on other forums. I checked around, and anytime someone brings up DR or FIST-FIRE on other forums the threads get closed, locked or shut down for no apparent reason. Why is that? :confused:

And NO I'm not a cool aide drinker either, I just find DR's logical, no nonsense approach to self defense shooting makes good sense. :cool:

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

I checked around, and anytime someone brings up DR or FIST-FIRE on other forums the threads get closed, locked or shut down for no apparent reason. Why is that?

That's because FIST-FIRE ROCKS their little worlds and they can't handle it...

Really, it scares them. They can't stand the fact that they no longer have the market cornered with the Weaver Stance. That and they're finding there's to shooting than just quoting the "Front Sight Press" mantra. :eek:

That's why there are more SHOOTING EXPERTS on the Internet than there are EXPERT SHOOTERS! :eek: :p :D